This is an interesting topic. I find it somewhat darkly humorous though that often times people advocating that men need masculine spaces or that traditionally masculine spaces should be kept such for men- are often the same people mocking concepts like “safe spaces.” People who will say keeping masculine spaces for men to express themselves freely as “men” isn’t sexism or discrimination are often the ones making commentary that “safe spaces” for groups like various ethnicities are a form of discrimination or self segregation. The disconnect or lack of self awareness there is astounding.
Yo be clear, I’m not arguing against men, or women, or really almost anyone from having “safe spaces” where they feel free to express themselves and behave “naturally” without prejudices or judgment.
Most humans in most societies have values such spaces- the home has often been such a space, or some area of it like a study or private chamber. Social pressures, pressures to conform to expectations or an image, the need to consider others feelings and opinions. When you speak and act- it’s stressful. Most people want and Can benefit from having spaces where they feel able to just speak freely without worry someone will misunderstand them or judge them or be offended. Most human civilization is braced by the “white lie.” By to some degree hiding or obscuring things that can cause disharmony.
In many cultures, when you dislike someone you don’t inherently go out of your way to be aggressive. This is socially disruptive. You generally need to be able to exist in the same spaces, work together for the good of family and community or self, participate in important social events etc.
what it means to be polite or professional is contextual- but lost societies have some version of this. You hate Jane at the PTA but you still say please and thank you, you don’t tell her to f$ck herself whenever she voices an opinion you don’t like, and when you offer refreshments after the meeting you offer her some too. It doesn’t mean you’re friends, but it isn’t your natural or honest feelings.
Your partner or a loved one may have certain aspects of them that they are sensitive about and may be beyond their control or not. It is generally considered rude to point and stare at those with obvious differences in ability physically or mentally. In most societies people do not speak every thought that enters their head, every opinion. This is a type of dishonesty and it is inherent to most societies because individuals are different but to have a society we must get along and share spaces and tasks and resources.
Part of society and civilization are being able to not pick fights and sow conflict with every single person that upsets you in some way or you dislike for some reason. For all the wars in human history, we’d have many more conflicts if people just went around saying and doing as they pleases without regards to others. That isn’t a society, it is a free for all throw down where progress and stability all but halt.
The amount of filter we use is contextual to culture and circumstances, but few if anyone is completely open and honest in all their feelings and thoughts all the time even with those they are closest to.
So there is certainly value in having spaces where likeminded folk can feel more free to not wear these masks.
We need outlets for instinct and behavior.
I am, as anyone who’s read almost anything I’ve written knows, no advocate of “men’s rights” as the modern trend goes. I believe in human rights and equity, I believe there are inequalities of gender that apply to men as much as women or other genders- but I don’t subscribe to the conceit that men are an oppressed and victimized group. With that said- Sex. Sex is a common issue when discussing gender issues. Both the marginalization and shaking of the sexual desires and freedom of women, and the expectations and drives and behaviors of men.
While the argument that men are naturally prone to “problematic behaviors” and hold no responsibility is laughable, it is also true that certain generalities can be made of the male gender as far as sexual desires and needs and expression. Often times discussions of behaviors concerning sex do not even consider the male need or perspective. For a long time, issues of sex have more or less only been from the male perspective, so I am not saying that the male perspective should lead the discussion- but it is an example of where the male perspective is not really considered. An almost unilateral discussion where terms are set and expected to be accepted universally.
The point being that men can control themselves and do not need to behave as animals. Societies existence proves this, but it also means that certain needs and instincts and urges still need to be given healthy and socially acceptable means of expression.
It means that we can dictate how people would behave in a society so that everyone can have a balance of comfort and security and safety and well being, but we can’t dictate the way people think or feel inside themselves.
So there is room for discussion on male spaces and spaces for specific groups to be able to express things in a safe, healthy way that doesn’t disrupt society. Having these spaces can be a good thing and it can be beneficial to everyone.
That said, I can speak to the specific example of sports and say that it is one thing to claim a “male space” and another to attempt to monopolize a multi billion dollar industry.
Say you and your friends all share an interest and want to make a club where you can enjoy that together free of distractions and judgements and such. Ok. But what if you claim every Walmart in America as that space? So no one can shop or work or be in that space except you and your friends? That doesn’t really work does it? That everyone except you and your friends are excluded from making money or getting benefits or access to such a huge and important opportunity just so you can have your “safe space”?
So I can’t support keeping women out of sports anymore than I could support keeping men out of designing women’s clothing or being nurses or any number of industries and jobs within a traditional “feminine” space. If you want to have a local club or a guys only game night or something and that is a thing you can negotiate equitably with the women or others in your life, who am I or anyone else to judge? But saying. That women cannot enter into a multi billion dollar globe spanning industry that has lucrative opportunities to grow wealth, careers, endorsement and book deals, consulting and all the other doors that working in sports and sports news and such Can open..? That’s… well… that’s a bit much.
And as a news flash- almost all jobs and industries in western and many other societies in the modern day are traditionally male dominated because women weren’t and in many places still aren’t allowed to do them dingus.
Women weren’t allowed to be combat soldiers in the US until less than a generation ago and only recently gained the ability to even try for special forces.
Women weren’t allowed or were prohibited from being doctors and lawyers, working the trades, driving jobs, any number of things… and many people on this board and millions- hundreds of millions or more alive today were around to see that.
So if you can block women or say we should block women from being in traditionally male spaces- you are basically saying women need to be in the kitchen or at home because those were largely, until very recently in history, the only spaces asides perhaps salons and such which were traditionally “female spaces.”
Now I’m not saying that everyone who believes sports should be male thinks that. I’m saying that if you examine the stance and actually think about it- that is the logical ends, and most people don’t think that far. They may, likely, not even want that, they just like sports.
And I get it. It isn’t my thing, but lots of guys like to stare at all men and enjoy the rough physicality and domination power plays of masculine energies and bodies intertwining. They enjoy the banter of men and hearing their deep voices and grunts. You don’t have to be exclusively homosexual on the spectrum of sexuality to want that or to enjoy sports or male spaces. That’s just what you like, perhaps in a no sexual way, and having that “feminine energy” can throw off a vibe. Of course- as a counter point- what about men who have a certain feminine energy? Again- that isn’t about sexuality. Many men who engage exclusively in heterosexual sexual activities and desires can be or are “feminine” by the widely
hold social gender norms or expectations. But- if having a woman and her “femininity” ruins a space, how do you screen for men with femininity?
I’ll speak plainly and without sensitivity. A lot of these sports commentators and players in my view are, or act like, little bit$hes.
Now what one person defines as masculine or feminine may differ, but many to me are possessing behaviors or demeanors and mannerisms which is traditional ascribe to what I see as being feminine. So why can they get a ticket in as heterosexual biological males who act like little bit$he’s and a woman who is more “man” than they may ever be is excluded because she may throw off the vibe? It doesn’t track.
And that does present a problem in the discussion of “safe spaces,” in that the idea is like minded people can express themselves freely around each other and enjoy shared touchstones- but while gender is one generalized means of discerning who is “like,” it isn’t absolute.
So I don’t know. There is a lot to it, and it isn’t completely invalid to examine the fact that exclusion based on a broad general class is inherently discriminatory.
But again- it is rife with paradox.
If sports is traditionally masculine, and thusly only men should be allowed, define a man for me? Because here is the thing… how do you feel about same sex rest rooms? If we say the men’s room is traditionally a place for men- then a biological male presenting as female would not be masculine generally by default no? If they have no penis… well… so they go to the women’s room? Is that your stance? I’d say there is probably significant overlap between the people who would want to exclude women from sports and people who don’t believe in all sex bathrooms, yet those positions can be argued to conflict.
At the very least they encounter the same issues of classification.
Except when we say that a space is traditionally masculine, we aren’t talking about some chromosomal or anatomical fact that can be definitively specified and sorted. We are talking about an abstract concept existing contextually to a society- gender roles, which then would equate to our trans population who regardless of chromosomes or anatomy, hold a certain identity.
So what do you make of all this? We can say that it certainly proves the already established but often refuted fact that gender identity is a concept, but we are left with many dangling threads.
A very important one not yet addressed? Traditionally… tradition is just what has been done before no? So if we change what we do today, the traditions change tomorrow.
We have more than enough human history- hell, anyone paying attention by the time they reach at least their 30’s will have seen the traditions and conventions and customs and routines of the world they grew up in change. That’s how this all works. Traditions today are not what they were 50,100,200,1000 years a ago in general. Even those traditions that have endured centuries and millennia seldom are actually truly a tradition. We do not celebrate Christmas the same way they did a century ago. We generally do not eat the same meals in the same ways and hold all the beliefs and rituals with identical details.
Tradition was that Santa came down your chimney- because most homes had chimneys if some sort because they didn’t have modern HVAC and you needed some actual flaming thing to provide heat for warmth or cooking and such.
Chimneys are relatively rare and primarily a luxury in the modern developed world in new construction and smaller homes like apartments and such are more common.
So Santa doesn’t exclusively come down chimneys. Few if any “bad kids” get coal and even the concept of “bad kids” has changed- hell, the very ideas kid can be “ba d” or telling them so as changed.
Traditions change. Even when we deal with groups that hold certain things scared above all for thousands of years. Has there been no changes in the lives of most Christians, Jews, Muslims or their faiths and how those are practiced? Even fundamentalists- hell, devour orthodox Jewish people, fundamentalist Muslims, Quakers and Amish who are literally the face of living in the last- even they have changed their traditions.
You change or die. That’s how the world works. So I dunnoh- there is room to discuss safe spaces, but it’s a big discussion.
Most humans in most societies have values such spaces- the home has often been such a space, or some area of it like a study or private chamber. Social pressures, pressures to conform to expectations or an image, the need to consider others feelings and opinions. When you speak and act- it’s stressful. Most people want and Can benefit from having spaces where they feel able to just speak freely without worry someone will misunderstand them or judge them or be offended. Most human civilization is braced by the “white lie.” By to some degree hiding or obscuring things that can cause disharmony.
what it means to be polite or professional is contextual- but lost societies have some version of this. You hate Jane at the PTA but you still say please and thank you, you don’t tell her to f$ck herself whenever she voices an opinion you don’t like, and when you offer refreshments after the meeting you offer her some too. It doesn’t mean you’re friends, but it isn’t your natural or honest feelings.
The amount of filter we use is contextual to culture and circumstances, but few if anyone is completely open and honest in all their feelings and thoughts all the time even with those they are closest to.
We need outlets for instinct and behavior.
I am, as anyone who’s read almost anything I’ve written knows, no advocate of “men’s rights” as the modern trend goes. I believe in human rights and equity, I believe there are inequalities of gender that apply to men as much as women or other genders- but I don’t subscribe to the conceit that men are an oppressed and victimized group. With that said- Sex. Sex is a common issue when discussing gender issues. Both the marginalization and shaking of the sexual desires and freedom of women, and the expectations and drives and behaviors of men.
It means that we can dictate how people would behave in a society so that everyone can have a balance of comfort and security and safety and well being, but we can’t dictate the way people think or feel inside themselves.
That said, I can speak to the specific example of sports and say that it is one thing to claim a “male space” and another to attempt to monopolize a multi billion dollar industry.
Say you and your friends all share an interest and want to make a club where you can enjoy that together free of distractions and judgements and such. Ok. But what if you claim every Walmart in America as that space? So no one can shop or work or be in that space except you and your friends? That doesn’t really work does it? That everyone except you and your friends are excluded from making money or getting benefits or access to such a huge and important opportunity just so you can have your “safe space”?
Women weren’t allowed to be combat soldiers in the US until less than a generation ago and only recently gained the ability to even try for special forces.
Women weren’t allowed or were prohibited from being doctors and lawyers, working the trades, driving jobs, any number of things… and many people on this board and millions- hundreds of millions or more alive today were around to see that.
So if you can block women or say we should block women from being in traditionally male spaces- you are basically saying women need to be in the kitchen or at home because those were largely, until very recently in history, the only spaces asides perhaps salons and such which were traditionally “female spaces.”
And I get it. It isn’t my thing, but lots of guys like to stare at all men and enjoy the rough physicality and domination power plays of masculine energies and bodies intertwining. They enjoy the banter of men and hearing their deep voices and grunts. You don’t have to be exclusively homosexual on the spectrum of sexuality to want that or to enjoy sports or male spaces. That’s just what you like, perhaps in a no sexual way, and having that “feminine energy” can throw off a vibe. Of course- as a counter point- what about men who have a certain feminine energy? Again- that isn’t about sexuality. Many men who engage exclusively in heterosexual sexual activities and desires can be or are “feminine” by the widely
I’ll speak plainly and without sensitivity. A lot of these sports commentators and players in my view are, or act like, little bit$hes.
Now what one person defines as masculine or feminine may differ, but many to me are possessing behaviors or demeanors and mannerisms which is traditional ascribe to what I see as being feminine. So why can they get a ticket in as heterosexual biological males who act like little bit$he’s and a woman who is more “man” than they may ever be is excluded because she may throw off the vibe? It doesn’t track.
And that does present a problem in the discussion of “safe spaces,” in that the idea is like minded people can express themselves freely around each other and enjoy shared touchstones- but while gender is one generalized means of discerning who is “like,” it isn’t absolute.
But again- it is rife with paradox.
If sports is traditionally masculine, and thusly only men should be allowed, define a man for me? Because here is the thing… how do you feel about same sex rest rooms? If we say the men’s room is traditionally a place for men- then a biological male presenting as female would not be masculine generally by default no? If they have no penis… well… so they go to the women’s room? Is that your stance? I’d say there is probably significant overlap between the people who would want to exclude women from sports and people who don’t believe in all sex bathrooms, yet those positions can be argued to conflict.
Except when we say that a space is traditionally masculine, we aren’t talking about some chromosomal or anatomical fact that can be definitively specified and sorted. We are talking about an abstract concept existing contextually to a society- gender roles, which then would equate to our trans population who regardless of chromosomes or anatomy, hold a certain identity.
So what do you make of all this? We can say that it certainly proves the already established but often refuted fact that gender identity is a concept, but we are left with many dangling threads.
We have more than enough human history- hell, anyone paying attention by the time they reach at least their 30’s will have seen the traditions and conventions and customs and routines of the world they grew up in change. That’s how this all works. Traditions today are not what they were 50,100,200,1000 years a ago in general. Even those traditions that have endured centuries and millennia seldom are actually truly a tradition. We do not celebrate Christmas the same way they did a century ago. We generally do not eat the same meals in the same ways and hold all the beliefs and rituals with identical details.
Chimneys are relatively rare and primarily a luxury in the modern developed world in new construction and smaller homes like apartments and such are more common.
So Santa doesn’t exclusively come down chimneys. Few if any “bad kids” get coal and even the concept of “bad kids” has changed- hell, the very ideas kid can be “ba d” or telling them so as changed.
You change or die. That’s how the world works. So I dunnoh- there is room to discuss safe spaces, but it’s a big discussion.