Okay but imagine if parachutes had even a fraction the failure rate of the thing you're trying to mock us for not trusting, nevermind the new issues created by the drug.
Oh geee can you seeeeeee
By the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed
At the twilight's... sparkly vampires or something, idk, I'm not a freedom pigeon
Yes. Poor pawns. Manipulated by an unseen hand. I suppose if pawns could think, the way to get them to go where you want would be to make them believe that they are acting in their own self interest when in fact, each move they make is for the benefit of the unseen hand who doesn’t care for their pawns behind their use to achieve the goals of the hand.
Humorously- we can certainly apply that argument to people who are “pro mask” etc- but….
It applies equally to those who claim independent thought while being used as a political tool, just by different masters.
“I’m not a tool…” no. Of course not. Surely society and you stand to gain more from the issue of masks than any of the other literally thousands of abuses and threats to rights and freedoms. Surely you stand to gain political influence and wealth and power like the people “above” you socially who are pushing the same “independent agenda” as you. Yes. A worthwhile distraction.. errr.. discussion for free thinkers.
That was quite a mouthful of nothing?
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Especially considering i don't think anyone here took the stance so far that they are not being used as part of a political narrative... closest would be Karl and the Op of the post itself. MeThinks the Guest doth protest too much
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All famous said was what if parachutes had the same failure rate? Would you still trust them?
The entire comparison is honestly ridiculous either way because covid19 (assuming that's what the post is about) is not a fundamental undeniable physics law that impacts literally everything in the known universe in one way or another.
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Covid19 also doesn't have anywhere close to the casualty and death rate of jumping out of an airplane with no parachute.
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It also implies that at some point the OP lived and functioned in a gravity-free world, which is honestly a far more intriguing talking point because how the fuck did they pull that off
I love that salty_frog can't even address my question. All they have is what? Personal attacks? Go ahead and call me a nazi again, for wanting people to be able to peaceably assemble and leave their homes without having to present papers. Call me a fascist while you keep allowing the union of corporation and state to claim ownership over people's bodies.
And guest? Speak plainly. You'll go so much further in actually communicating your point. Nobody cares to read any condescending manifestos that can't even communicate a clear stance.
There is no equivalence. One side wants people to have final say over their own lives. The other side is sending people to camps and smearing political and civil opposition as subhumans who are wrong to think they belong to themselves more than the State and corporation.
Oh, hey @guest_. Welcome back. It'll be nice to have some novel-length comments that aren't propaganda. I'm afraid it's not the best time though, as certain users have been gripped by a bad case of the (free)dum.
@xvarnah- Apologies. This was supposed to go into another “vaccination freedom thread” and I somehow goofed it. Regardless- you seem to have taken up the gist of it and then staunchly rejected it on the grounds that the debate is in fact “free thinkers against followers” which sort of.. proved the point.
@famousone- I’d rather write a long manifesto worded to obscurely to carry interest than a short bit of catchy but regurgitated propaganda passed off as my own opinion. Do you honestly think such a trivial debate amidst such more pressing threats to freedom to live one’s life is about anything other than politics and money above the heads of most people participating? That such conspiracies and plots are limited to one aisle of politics…? I’ve always had high hopes for your potential to think despite what you may believe, so I choose to believe that you can’t possibly be so narrow sighted.
@karlboll@happy frog @carfluff- hi! It’s been awhile. Sorry I left without any word. My absence wasn’t planned and then time just got away from me keeping busy.
Inalienable rights are not trivial- but what inalienable right are you talking about specifically in this case?
How do the stakes- the REAL stakes of effect on life and the philosophical stakes to rights does this inalienable right compare to the literally thousands of other rights being threatened or in an ongoing state of repression that we could be discussing and “fighting for” instead?
Voter rights are being suppressed. The very democratic and electoral process are at threat. Debates is ongoing on the matter of citizens being able to go outside or even sleep in their own beds without being killed by the police who are meant to serve and protect them. Second and first amendment rights are under dire threat and Texas SB8 has set a horrifying president other states have begun to follow passing laws about what they don’t like but can’t get the votes or Supreme Court sign off to ban like guns.
And this is the fight that needs fought for freedom? A mask?
Yes, Americans are having our voice stolen by us by democrats voting for the dead, giving the vote to invaders, and using the fake pandemic as an excuse to allow yet more elections with national repercussions go unsecured. Our republic is threatened by the left wanting to pack courts, kill the filibuster they used hundreds time in the last couple years, and their illegal attempt to federalize the election system our Constitution explicitly gives to state authority. We also have to contend with cowards keeping the police from stopping domestic terrorists and insurrectionists that have actually claimed territory away from the United States.
And yes, the President and his ilk are calling for all dissenters to be silenced, spreading more misinformation than any propaganda group in known history. Yes, the current administration is illegally trying to disarm and restrict civilian arms even further.
But this fight is the one that matters. This fight is the vehicle by which leftists are doubling down on their other campaigns, and this fight has global ramifications. Shelves are empty, global power and wealth is being reshuffled to the benefit of tyrants, and it is absolutely imperative that I maintain the ability to say "No! This is my body! Not yours to experiment on and poison."
Now stop trying to distract from the issue. This isn't about scientifically useless masks or your sympathies for anarchists and domestic terrorists. This is about who owns your body and mine. And it will always be the most important thing in the world for us to be able to say "I am a man"!
Yeah when the white house gets involved in trying to pressure a company to ban a podcast simply because it discusses the concept of alternative methods of treatment you are now planting a foot firmly outside democracy and into the kind of regime that lays waste to entire civilizations
@famousone- the most important thing in the world for me as a human, or as a man, is not to cry over being forced to wear a mask, forced to wear clothes in public, etc. I’d say as a man I make my own decisions and more importantly as a man, I carry the consequences of my choices. If a law is so unjust it offends me so much, I won’t abide it. I’ll do my time in jail or whatever else I get for it and for my integrity in what I believe.
For how “severe” and dear to some peoples hearts they are- I don’t see many people standing their ground and taking it on the chin to show their commitment. I see a lot of entitled whining and people making excuses about how critical this is- but not critical enough for them to put themselves in even moderate discomfit over fighting.
It reduces the sincerity of convictions when words say one thing and actions another. Perhaps when a million unmasked people peacefully go to jail in protest I could believe it’s more than whining.
As for dead voters and such- if you believe that and you think being forced to wear a mask is a more serious threat to freedom in this country than dead people being used to swing elections….
Well… that’s your personal belief and your right to think- but most right minded folk aren’t going to agree, and to myself and many others it makes the entire argument sound rather silly.
@xvarnah- I could see how the White House getting involved in public health or information would be concerning. It’s a slippery slope. They might create a position- like some sort of general- doctor general or perhaps surgeon general… they might start holding briefings and issuing releases and reports to make sure people have accurate information too.
And it doesn’t stop with viruses I’m sure. Next the government will be regulating what private companies put in food, perhaps someday they’ll regulate how aircraft are built and maintained or even how medicines are made or sold.
If we let the government tell private companies what to do for the public or employee well being- we may get minimum wages or mandatory breaks or even maternity leave. Then big government is telling Google they can’t host videos to teach you to make bombs and they’re taking down recruitment sites for Isis and free speech is ruined. Can’t have that I’m sure.
But I’m sure if people like you and famousone can be heard, our nation will never face those perils. People can get their information from Facebook or meme sites and neighbors and such as surely is best.
The government can get out of peoples business and let individual people decide if they think slavery is right or if the majority of a town thinks it should be segregated. Each person could interpret the constitution in their own way, without hang ups like a Supreme Court or any study in the constitution that didn’t involve Google. Degrees are just a certificate that you were indoctrinated to think the way that institution wants no? A critical thinker would figure it out themselves without all those biased books written by liberals and puppets?
Yes. I’m just sad that I will not be around to see such a bright future you would create, where the dream thinkers of this nation that come up with ideas like JFK is wearing a Trump suit and still alive would be the minds we trust.
We are literally facing these perils as we speak. You're not even in Canada you have no idea what perils people like me are facing here. That I can mouth off on a meme site in no way comes close to cancelling out the very charter of rights decaying before my eyes for over two years.
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I can't even speak remotely freely in my own damn country.
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So you can take that shit and shove it and then keep shoving it right off a cliff and into the deepest pits of hell because THAT is the only place that kind of logic belongs outside of China.
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We have freedoms because people fight for them. We lose them when people are placid.
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And considering famous was literally a soldier, yeah, you do have him to thank for your freedoms. Whenever you climb off your high horse, that is.
I'm sorry @guest_. Did you say you'd willingly go to jail instead of following a law you don't agree with? Instead of taking action to alter laws that are unjust or immoral you'd rather let the unjust and immoral imprison you and permanently alter your life for the worse?
That concept is called "civil disobedience", and has been used to great effect by the likes of Ali, Parks, and other Civil Rights icons.
But it does seem rather foolish to resort straight to doing prison time when legal avenues still exist. Which is besides the point, nobody said anything about masks. Maybe if we our foot down back then, we wouldn't be talking about door to door jab checks, being sent to camps, or denying healthcare to people based on who is more willing to be injected with a vaccine that isn't.
@adam44@famousone- this topic keeps being framed as Ana desultory on freedom. It keeps being brought up how this is such a critical battle- by certain parties. If that were true- if there were an issue I felt was I just and critical, I would risk prison or even in extremes, worse. ULTIMATELY. As famousone points out in a “no $h*t” moment- starting using legal channels is probably best- but not everyone has the resources or knowledge to do that, and many who CAN do so can’t easily afford to without some hardship. If this is as critical an issue as some people say- well- famousone mentions past civil rights issues, and in those issues that were so inarguably critical like segregation and basic human rights for POC Americans- millions of people risked money, jail, death even- because they weren’t just whining while puffing up their chest saying how important it is- throwing buzzwords like “freedom” around like a child comparing not getting a pony to being abused.
It is hard to convince other people you believe what you say when you say a grave and ongoing threat to freedom is being perpetrated, and the limits of your own conviction in your statement are to complain and spam meme sites.
That is what I am saying. I’m saying that people in these threads keeps tossing about how serious a breach of freedom this is- but I don’t see serious action.
It wasn’t terribly hard to convince a bunch of people to bus in to a place knowing they’d get beaten up or to convince the fruit pickers to organize because they had actual, real, problems. Once these problems became apparent- most people looked at them and said: “yeah, that’s messed up…” or “wow. We didn’t know how serious these guys were” at the very least.
And when they got arrested- most of them didn’t issue half hearted apologies or try to weasel out of the fallout- they stood up and said they did the crime.
I don’t see that with mask people and vax people. Someone gets caught…
… then come the excuses. Then come the cop outs. We recently had several high profile sports stars and celebrities get caught lying about vaccinations or slipping requirements- almost ALL issued apologies, back pedaled, made excuses. I could count on one hand or less the number that stood up and said- “this is something I believe in, I’m not backing down, if I lose my career- I lose it…”
So yeah. It comes off as whining. Regardless, it all will eventually die down. Live long enough and you’ll see enough to know that wether it’s a couple years or decades, things change but they also stay the same. We still have post 9/11 measures we deal with- but the hype isn’t what it was all those years ago.
Speaking of- the government is still using “emergency” anti terrorism measures to monitor private civilian communications. Your body is pretty big in freedom- your mind is kinda bigger- so I mean… like I’ve said… there are bigger fish to fry maybe.
Uuhh....the truckers in multiple countries including Canada, Australia, the UK? Didn't notice those guys? You know, the ones who sacrificed comfort, family time, paying jobs, and their personal finances to fight against these mandates? I don't think they're just "puffing their chest out" but you're probably right. They're probably just full of hot air and should just calm down while their freedoms are being destroyed. Oops, I said freedom in a manner suggesting it's important and needs to be maintained. Guess I'm just another blowhard who's doing nothing at all if you ignore everything I'm doing to fight back against government tyranny. The time and expenses I've incurred resisting government control of my very body don't count clearly.
Aw, look at that. Guest presumes to know what we do with our lives and our money.
How dare we post memes mocking the tyrants and propagandists! We're breaking up the echo chamber of Tumblr reposts, communist propaganda, and how evil and stupid white people are.
How dare anybody dissent from the approved narrative, which is clearly the only narrative guest cares to follow. The one that muddies every issue, and tries to paralyze opposition through sheer quantity of meaningless drivel, much like guest himself.
There are plenty of fish to fry, and we're working on it. With time and money and spreading awareness. But this one? This one is plenty big enough to focus on.
@adam44- I did leave out the truckers, and you are right there is a group which is putting their money where their mouth is. That is one group I can take seriously- though the verdict on convictions is somewhat muddied when we discuss trucking as truckers are generally represented and bound to unions or collective codes and with past instances of collective action by these groups and the nature of collective action- we can’t say it is an entirely ethics based move and not part of an action intended to gain other benefits. At the end of the day- most of this covid stuff (wether people “support” or “oppose”) is parroting or politics. Like 9/11 or Katrina or so many other issues- it’s about leveraging the situation as an avatar to pile other ambitions on. Regardless- the truckers are doing things. So I suppose when discussing covid I will have to ask people first if they are a trucker, and if not, ask they please sit down.
@famousone- I’m not sure what your repeated personal attacks have to do with the discussion, other than as a tactic most often employed by those whom don’t have anything to say but need a way to discredit an opposing view.
You have not given a single rebuttal or supporting statement to any of my questions or challenges other than to insult me or to just say- yet again- “because it’s important.” “It’s about freedom…” oh. Ok. How? And again- how is this the threat to freedom that needs this attention?
You know famousone, it’s also ok to avoid these arguments and just be honest sometimes and say: “I can’t logic it out or explain it” or “I don’t have the words to articulate my position- it’s just how I feel and not based on logic you can follow or fact…”
Your opinion can just be your opinion man. You’re good enough, your thoughts and feelings are valid even if not aligned to reality without needing to try and prop them up with outside validations.
Again with the meaningless drivel.
When I said "something is wrong with you", that was in direct response to your attempt at minimizing the freedom convoy, and your assertion that unless one is a truck driver they should "sit down".
As for the rest, I'm done being dragged about rebutting your tangents that have nothing to do with my initial point, just for you to pretend that I never said anything. You want rebuttals? Look at the ones I already gave you. And for the record? You started with the personal attacks. You can't take it? Maybe you should have left the baseless condescension out of your initial comment. But then, there isn't any substance left when your arrogance and infantilization is cut out.
What? Next you're gonna tell me that unless I get shot in the head, my stances against racism mean nothing and I should "sit down"? You don't know shit about what I've been doing.
I don’t know you, just what you show or tell. Never said I did. My argument doesn’t hinge on knowing you, I am not trying to make this about me and you, I am discussing opinions and logic and have already said I don’t want to have a discussion about myself, no matter how much you like the topic of me- not interested.
As for your question- the one part of your reply which holds any sort of relevance to the topic at hand:
No. You don’t have to get shot for your opinion on anything to mean anything. There is a whole world of things between “complain into a void” and “get shot.”
Our actions speak louder than our words. Our opinions mean exactly as much as they mean to US. As I already said- you don’t need other people to validate how you feel famousone. You’re worthy of having feelings that are your own.
Our CONVICTIONS are shown through our actions. You can say something is very important- but if you don’t actually do anything except complain- it probably isn’t that important to you. Saying your family is important and you’d defend them for example- if they are in danger and you defend them, even at your own peril, you’ve shown you meant it. If they are in danger and you sit there typing on the internet about it when it is in your power to do something about it but you don’t… your actions spoke
You just showed up to tell us not to talk about it, as if talking about things invalidates actions, or is a sign of inaction. As much louder as actions are, in this propaganda struggle voicing dissent still matters. Maybe even more, in this world where the state is united with the media and pop culture in making sure only the approved narrative gets out.
You don't need 4 pages of text to say as much.
Ah. Then I must apologize and concede your point. I came to discuss logic and facts. I didn’t know you were just trying to engage in propaganda. You are correct, your short and easily digested posts full of insults and self truisms are much better propaganda than my long posts that must be read and thought on.
If you want to label your posts as propaganda from the start when you are fighting your propaganda wars, I could then avoid coming to discuss them as I am not interested in engaging in your propaganda campaigns. Or if you prefer, because I don’t want to place it all on you, would you rather I ask you if a post of yours is propaganda or legitimately up for discussion before I reply? I’m also open to other ideas you have. I just want to avoid making the mistake in the future and not stepping on your toes while you’re on the job making propaganda.
Let me know, and again, apologies for the mix up.
I’m not attacking you famousone. If I’ve offended you I apologize. Can you please point out where I’ve attacked you? Disagreeing with your opinion isn’t an attack on you. I’m not calling your validity as a person into question by challenging your opinion and I’m sorry if I’ve triggered your insecurities. Please let me know where I offended you or what I said that made you feel this way so I can avoid it in the future? Thank you.
I can’t tell you how to feel famousone one. If you take my words as condescending or mocking all I can do is take specific examples and tell you wether I intended them to be condescending or mocking. I am completely unaware of what you mean by accusations I’ve baked into my replies.
As for reduction to absurdity, I’m also not sure what you mean, but if I did not misunderstand (correct me if I did) your main arguments boil down to reducing the issue down to concepts like freedom.
Now, we are both distilling things down it seems, but am I reducing things to absurdity or is it that under logical examination certain arguments are exposed as absurd? That’s open to debate, but as I said before, if you have any specific examples we can review them to build an understanding and hopefully help me avoid whatever it is I’m doing which is tripping your insecurities or triggering you to feel talked down to.
Let's refocus. Your stance is that every measure enacted to "control covid" is legitimate. That the massive blue-collar uprising going on in Ottawa is suspect because "unions". And that we shouldn't challenge the propaganda being put out by A) the National leader that suspended elections and the Canadian Constitution and B) the Ottowan government that is trying to outlaw peaceful protest, steal millions of dollars meant for the protesters to instead benefit themselves and violent organizations, and actively endanger the peaceful protesters, because unless we're Canadian truckers we need to "sit down".
Is that all accurate?
1. For the record the DV isn’t from me.
2. No. Incorrect. I did not say that every measure to “control covid” is legitimate. In several places I say that I believe several are illegitimate or put in place through illegitimate means and not proper legal channels.
3. No. I do not believe the “convoy” is illegitimate because “unions.” Most unions have disavowed them and the nations largest trucking organization has called into question of many are even truckers. The presence of what we can imprecisely but generally refer to as open and on display “Nazis” has the natural tendency to delegitimize a political group though.
4. Can you please provide more information on this theft of millions of dollars? I am not aware of this. Cannot discuss, but I find several things in that next section I won’t legitimize as they warrant their own discussion which could get us off track.
5. No. In context my quote to “sit down” was a stylized way of emphasizing the point of that particular…
.. discussion which was about convictions and those who were just complaining because it was easy to do and those who were actively engaged in fighting against covid protocols directly.
The larger discussion that came from was that yourself and others had repeatedly leaned on the concept that covid mandates were a major issue of personal freedom- so to summarize I had said that if a person truly believed that and was fighting for freedom, and truly believed freedom was so important, they would actually do something instead of sending what amounts to “thoughts and prayers.” Things like a letter ratting campaign, fund raising, lobbying, demonstrating, etc. that’s when the truckers came up as an example of a group that was actually doing something-
Wether one supports them or not- they were doing more than whining.
The comment to sit down was specifically towards arm chair whiners and the part about Canadian truckers didn’t include “Canadian” I had said something like:
“I guess I’ll have to ask people if they’re a trucker or not” and the. Something like “and if they aren’t tell them to sit down.”
It is turn off phrase, so I didn’t literally mean that only truckers may speak on the issue, the implication was that “trucker” was used metaphorically in context to refer to a person who is actually doing something personally to fight what they see as an injustice versus someone who is screaming about how unfair it is and expecting or hoping others feel the same way, but isn’t actually doing the work to defend the freedom they feel is threatened through action or direct communication with policy makers.
In essence- my stance there was that if an argument hinges on how critical the stakes are, but the person telling me how important it is doesn’t see it as enough of a priority to do more than type about it, they probably don’t actually think it’s that important.
But thank you for clarifying your position. Amazing what can be accomplished when you speak plainly and drop the condescension. Now I can see that we're largely in agreement. Now why were you hung up on masks? That argument is like 3 years old.
I’m not sure we are in agreement? And I’m still not sure what condescension you refer to. It could be the way that I write comes off as condescending to you?
The masks thing is most likely because there were a couple discussions recently I saw and posted in pertaining to masks, so it is both possible that I got mixed up a bit and/or that there were sting parallels between something in this thread and those.
It is also generalizing, but I would say fairly accurate that if a person opposes mask mandates they oppose vaccine mandates; and to a lesser degree a person that opposes vaccine mandates opposes masks. Not always true- but not every man you meet will have a penis either, most will.
More over, when it comes to the general issue of “covid politics” and freedom, discussions of masks and discussion of vaccines tend to be linked. Both are mandates put forward to mitigate covid and both are issues that many feel infringe on personal freedom or overstep authority.
Regardless I see all as tied together since any “tragedy” is just an opportunity to those looking for power or money, covid is no exception. As I said earlier- I highly doubt that the major players and instigators on any side of the issue aren’t working to use the issues to their benefit without really caring about the issues or people involved. It’s all a game, it always is. CNN tells you get a vaccine and gains 1 million fanatical viewers. Fox tells you the vaccine will shrink your pee pee and Mitch Mconnell is actually a Frank Sinatra clone in disguise and they gain a million rabid viewers. Then each one tells you a company owned by someone who costs them money is out to destroy America and all the rich people make more money and get more views and influence while we all dance around fighting each other instead of the guys using us to get richer while we get poorer.
I much prefer the people who don't treat me like a guinea pig or state resource get rich, long before I will make peace with those who contest my claim of ownership over myself.
If you look around the room you are in on an average day- those are basically the people who probably aren’t using you. If you see them on tv, the internet, print, in office, etc. and they are giving opinions- they’re probably using you- or trying to. Wether we dance the tune they are playing or not is the main decider if they succeed.
The fallacy is that because you are acting on your own thoughts and for what you want that you are not being used. A mastery of control is making people useful wether they know they work for you or not.
When we dance to the tune played by media and governments and “counter cultural thinkers” and these people who aren’t where they are for any reason other than they know how to make people do what they need them to- we are being used.
The donkey isn’t being told where to go, it wants the carrot so it follows the carrot. It just happens to be a coincidence that the carrot leads it to the exact place where the guy with the stick wanted to go….
And that's where I think our argument really started. I'm not being led anywhere by people telling me I'm a "free thinker". I already have my own morals and values. I'm only sticking to them. Just like I got on Trump's case for capitulating on gun control, it simply is that I'm on *my* side first and last. And I'll align with like-minded people as far as we are like-minded.
It's gotten me a lot of heat on gun rights forums that I'll call out police and government overreach and missteps, but will still speak out (which is actually dangerous in my neck of the woods) and donate in support of law enforcement.
That is to say, it seems you're implying that I'm being led by the nose. When in fact I know my goals only align with any groups until they don't. But we've agreed for the time on what the more immediate concern is. I'll shoot the anarchists tomorrow, but today stand with them against tyrants.
I’m not implying your being led, I’m
Stating plainly that you don’t need to be led, all they have to do is create the conflict they can market to the sensibilities of their target audience and let you decide for yourself to do exactly what they want you to.
Here’s my mental math as pertains to the subject:
The closest thing to “complete freedom” for an individual is anarchy. As free as you may be, most people around the world will likely never be so free that they can kill anyone they feel like in cold blood. You and I likely both agree that is a good thing.
Charles Manson or any number of killers locked in jails and institutions might say “what’s wrong with being free to kill..?”
We remove them from society and what is left is mostly people who don’t want to have “the freedom to kill anyone.”
So basically no one is fighting for the freedom to murder others because we don’t want it. It’s not a freedom we care about so it isn’t one we miss. We aren’t truly free…
… but so long as we are free to more or less do what we want- that’s the same thing as being free to us. We only really miss a freedom when it comes time we want to use it and we can’t.
So the fact you aren’t completely free doesn’t matter to you. You’re probably happy about it, I doubt you’d be happy if they granted freedom to murder right?
By the same token- you don’t have to make or compel someone to do what you want if you set it up so that they will do what you want and call it their own idea. It is their own idea- you just happened to know they’d react that way so you provided the spark to light the flame.
The best people at motivating others are the ones who you can’t even tell are doing it. They let you have the idea yourself- so you own it.
Jim knows there is a cushy promotion that will be coming up, he also knows there is rival company with a fancy sounding job opening for a crappy job.
Jim’s big competition for the promotion will be Bill. Bill is a go getter, ambitious and skilled, looking to advance, but above all competitive.
Jim finds out Sharon is going to apply at the rival company. He sends a message to Bill saying “wow! Sharon is in the running for that cool job!”
That news sets Bill in gear and he beats Sharon for the job. Jim gets the promotion because Bill is gone, “winning” his crappy prize.
Bill wasn’t led anywhere. Jim didn’t make him do anything. Jim just gave Bill the news- and rightly predicted that once Bill knew- he’d do exactly what Jim wanted him to. He didn’t have to manipulate Bill. Bill made every decision himself based on the information he had. This is what the most successful people do. They don’t give you ideas or lead you by the nose, they read a room and tailor a pitch they know should get that crowd to do what they need all on their own.
Bill was a free thinker, sincerely- his thoughts and actions were his own and we can’t really say he was tricked, there were no explicit lies or coercion.
Winners set it up so they can’t lose. Finding people to happily do the work you need some for free is generally a win.
The only “thought” I suggested on your idea of freedom was that I said you probably don’t think it’s a good thing if people are free to murder other people.
Do you think we should have the freedom to murder other people, or do you think we should be restricted from committing murder at will?
I think people should be able to do as they please until another person is involved. In which case they can only respect the other's freedom through agreement, or at least non-aggression.
Murder is not freedom. Murder is stripping away another's freedom.
And then your prior comment is implying that I'm being manipulated to win a crappy prize. You're making me out to be toy soldier just waiting for somebody else to turn my key. You're wrong, and the mere implication is nothing less than insulting.
One way I get to live life normally. The other way state enforcers are going door to door to force compliance with militant force.
So:
1. Then I did not misspeak on your idea of freedom, you do not believe each person should be free to murder another person- which is what I said I believed was your view on the matter.
2. No. Again. You are not a toy soldier waiting to have his key wound. You move around at your own will constantly, making choices for yourself and expressing agency in your life, and I am not saying otherwise.
I’m saying you are reasonably predictable. Like most people. Social engineering can be used to make you choose things you wouldn’t normally, but it is also a method of predicting how people will behave on their own, and then designing a scenario so that their behavior benefits you.
A simple example is the classic “leak.”
If I know that most people will either want to see, or will discuss a person in a scandal, and I know that the more a name is discussed, the more recognizable it is. The more recognizable a name is, the more marketable it is. The more marketable,
The more in demand and theoretically profitable it is. If I leak a scandal on someone I want to boost, a real “dirty laundry” and not something made up to trick you, there was no manipulation.
I provided true information, information curated and presented to have the maximum odds of impacting how I want it to, but completely true.
Nothing about that changes the way you think it would behave, you are only naturally responding to events around you as you normally would. I just anticipated that and ensured that the timing and circumstances lined up so that I could use your reaction to get what I wanted.
And I’m not saying that only about YOU, that’s just how most people are. That’s the basis behind politics and media. The “average” person can be broken into generalized demographics or groups. Based on those groups we can reasonably predict how those people will naturally respond to certain things or even a general opinion on certain things.
In 2020 the crevasses got .001% deeper and the 4 foot stairs got 1/4" narrower for older and unhealthy people. Now, technology has produced a vaccine that widens the stairs by 1/8" and lessens the ravine by. 000%..
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I support vaccines, this ine included. I believe the benefits outweigh the risks for a lot if people. It should be noted that 1/3 of the previously recommended vaccines is no longer recommend because it did things to people that they didn't intend. Also, the companies who made the covid vaccines insisted on immunity from lawsuit against unintended side effects for some reason. Oh, and the pharmaceutical companies that made the shots have paid billions in 3 of the 10 larges lawsuits in history.
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All I'm saying is to just let each one of us assess the risk of losing 1/8" of a staircase vs mandating a vaccine for what is statistically a very...very small risk for the young and healthy.
Gotta say that while I understand what you were saying,the staircase narrowing thing was one of the strangest concepts I've tried to picture in awhile.
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Still, when the original comparison laid out in the post is batshit ridiculous, you work with what you got
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But yeah, you pretty much said it. 99% of people against the vaccine don't care if YOU want to get it. They just want you to stop trying to force them to get it.
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And let's not forget multiple sources have stated the vaccines do not arrive with the ingredients listed anywhere on them; we were lied to about the ingredients openly; pharmaceutical companies have stated (both on and off the record) that the vaccines are not effective, and not AS effective as natural immunity. They've lied repeatedly about the statistics connected to covid
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They won't even acknowledge alternate methods of treatment - actively condemned them, actually. And they won't acknowledge the risks involved in the vaccine or the deaths caused so far.
My point being, again:
If you gather all your information on these vaccines and you decide you want it in your body: Godspeed.
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But stop demanding anyone else do the same. There's more than enough reason to be concerned
It did get the point across with what you were working with haha
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Honestly thinking about it just as a stand-alone concept unconnected to covid now and it sounds like some sort of bizarre Black Mirror episode that got cancelled where people are lining up to get injections to widen their staircases and make other minor modifications to their houses and the world around them. Idk what the dark twist at the end would be but
By the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed
At the twilight's... sparkly vampires or something, idk, I'm not a freedom pigeon
Humorously- we can certainly apply that argument to people who are “pro mask” etc- but….
It applies equally to those who claim independent thought while being used as a political tool, just by different masters.
“I’m not a tool…” no. Of course not. Surely society and you stand to gain more from the issue of masks than any of the other literally thousands of abuses and threats to rights and freedoms. Surely you stand to gain political influence and wealth and power like the people “above” you socially who are pushing the same “independent agenda” as you. Yes. A worthwhile distraction.. errr.. discussion for free thinkers.
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Especially considering i don't think anyone here took the stance so far that they are not being used as part of a political narrative... closest would be Karl and the Op of the post itself. MeThinks the Guest doth protest too much
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All famous said was what if parachutes had the same failure rate? Would you still trust them?
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Covid19 also doesn't have anywhere close to the casualty and death rate of jumping out of an airplane with no parachute.
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It also implies that at some point the OP lived and functioned in a gravity-free world, which is honestly a far more intriguing talking point because how the fuck did they pull that off
There is no equivalence. One side wants people to have final say over their own lives. The other side is sending people to camps and smearing political and civil opposition as subhumans who are wrong to think they belong to themselves more than the State and corporation.
@famousone- I’d rather write a long manifesto worded to obscurely to carry interest than a short bit of catchy but regurgitated propaganda passed off as my own opinion. Do you honestly think such a trivial debate amidst such more pressing threats to freedom to live one’s life is about anything other than politics and money above the heads of most people participating? That such conspiracies and plots are limited to one aisle of politics…? I’ve always had high hopes for your potential to think despite what you may believe, so I choose to believe that you can’t possibly be so narrow sighted.
How do the stakes- the REAL stakes of effect on life and the philosophical stakes to rights does this inalienable right compare to the literally thousands of other rights being threatened or in an ongoing state of repression that we could be discussing and “fighting for” instead?
Voter rights are being suppressed. The very democratic and electoral process are at threat. Debates is ongoing on the matter of citizens being able to go outside or even sleep in their own beds without being killed by the police who are meant to serve and protect them. Second and first amendment rights are under dire threat and Texas SB8 has set a horrifying president other states have begun to follow passing laws about what they don’t like but can’t get the votes or Supreme Court sign off to ban like guns.
And this is the fight that needs fought for freedom? A mask?
And yes, the President and his ilk are calling for all dissenters to be silenced, spreading more misinformation than any propaganda group in known history. Yes, the current administration is illegally trying to disarm and restrict civilian arms even further.
Now stop trying to distract from the issue. This isn't about scientifically useless masks or your sympathies for anarchists and domestic terrorists. This is about who owns your body and mine. And it will always be the most important thing in the world for us to be able to say "I am a man"!
For how “severe” and dear to some peoples hearts they are- I don’t see many people standing their ground and taking it on the chin to show their commitment. I see a lot of entitled whining and people making excuses about how critical this is- but not critical enough for them to put themselves in even moderate discomfit over fighting.
It reduces the sincerity of convictions when words say one thing and actions another. Perhaps when a million unmasked people peacefully go to jail in protest I could believe it’s more than whining.
Well… that’s your personal belief and your right to think- but most right minded folk aren’t going to agree, and to myself and many others it makes the entire argument sound rather silly.
And it doesn’t stop with viruses I’m sure. Next the government will be regulating what private companies put in food, perhaps someday they’ll regulate how aircraft are built and maintained or even how medicines are made or sold.
If we let the government tell private companies what to do for the public or employee well being- we may get minimum wages or mandatory breaks or even maternity leave. Then big government is telling Google they can’t host videos to teach you to make bombs and they’re taking down recruitment sites for Isis and free speech is ruined. Can’t have that I’m sure.
The government can get out of peoples business and let individual people decide if they think slavery is right or if the majority of a town thinks it should be segregated. Each person could interpret the constitution in their own way, without hang ups like a Supreme Court or any study in the constitution that didn’t involve Google. Degrees are just a certificate that you were indoctrinated to think the way that institution wants no? A critical thinker would figure it out themselves without all those biased books written by liberals and puppets?
Yes. I’m just sad that I will not be around to see such a bright future you would create, where the dream thinkers of this nation that come up with ideas like JFK is wearing a Trump suit and still alive would be the minds we trust.
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I can't even speak remotely freely in my own damn country.
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So you can take that shit and shove it and then keep shoving it right off a cliff and into the deepest pits of hell because THAT is the only place that kind of logic belongs outside of China.
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We have freedoms because people fight for them. We lose them when people are placid.
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And considering famous was literally a soldier, yeah, you do have him to thank for your freedoms. Whenever you climb off your high horse, that is.
But it does seem rather foolish to resort straight to doing prison time when legal avenues still exist. Which is besides the point, nobody said anything about masks. Maybe if we our foot down back then, we wouldn't be talking about door to door jab checks, being sent to camps, or denying healthcare to people based on who is more willing to be injected with a vaccine that isn't.
That is what I am saying. I’m saying that people in these threads keeps tossing about how serious a breach of freedom this is- but I don’t see serious action.
It wasn’t terribly hard to convince a bunch of people to bus in to a place knowing they’d get beaten up or to convince the fruit pickers to organize because they had actual, real, problems. Once these problems became apparent- most people looked at them and said: “yeah, that’s messed up…” or “wow. We didn’t know how serious these guys were” at the very least.
And when they got arrested- most of them didn’t issue half hearted apologies or try to weasel out of the fallout- they stood up and said they did the crime.
I don’t see that with mask people and vax people. Someone gets caught…
So yeah. It comes off as whining. Regardless, it all will eventually die down. Live long enough and you’ll see enough to know that wether it’s a couple years or decades, things change but they also stay the same. We still have post 9/11 measures we deal with- but the hype isn’t what it was all those years ago.
Speaking of- the government is still using “emergency” anti terrorism measures to monitor private civilian communications. Your body is pretty big in freedom- your mind is kinda bigger- so I mean… like I’ve said… there are bigger fish to fry maybe.
How dare we post memes mocking the tyrants and propagandists! We're breaking up the echo chamber of Tumblr reposts, communist propaganda, and how evil and stupid white people are.
How dare anybody dissent from the approved narrative, which is clearly the only narrative guest cares to follow. The one that muddies every issue, and tries to paralyze opposition through sheer quantity of meaningless drivel, much like guest himself.
There are plenty of fish to fry, and we're working on it. With time and money and spreading awareness. But this one? This one is plenty big enough to focus on.
You have not given a single rebuttal or supporting statement to any of my questions or challenges other than to insult me or to just say- yet again- “because it’s important.” “It’s about freedom…” oh. Ok. How? And again- how is this the threat to freedom that needs this attention?
You know famousone, it’s also ok to avoid these arguments and just be honest sometimes and say: “I can’t logic it out or explain it” or “I don’t have the words to articulate my position- it’s just how I feel and not based on logic you can follow or fact…”
Your opinion can just be your opinion man. You’re good enough, your thoughts and feelings are valid even if not aligned to reality without needing to try and prop them up with outside validations.
When I said "something is wrong with you", that was in direct response to your attempt at minimizing the freedom convoy, and your assertion that unless one is a truck driver they should "sit down".
As for the rest, I'm done being dragged about rebutting your tangents that have nothing to do with my initial point, just for you to pretend that I never said anything. You want rebuttals? Look at the ones I already gave you. And for the record? You started with the personal attacks. You can't take it? Maybe you should have left the baseless condescension out of your initial comment. But then, there isn't any substance left when your arrogance and infantilization is cut out.
What? Next you're gonna tell me that unless I get shot in the head, my stances against racism mean nothing and I should "sit down"? You don't know shit about what I've been doing.
No. You don’t have to get shot for your opinion on anything to mean anything. There is a whole world of things between “complain into a void” and “get shot.”
Our actions speak louder than our words. Our opinions mean exactly as much as they mean to US. As I already said- you don’t need other people to validate how you feel famousone. You’re worthy of having feelings that are your own.
Our CONVICTIONS are shown through our actions. You can say something is very important- but if you don’t actually do anything except complain- it probably isn’t that important to you. Saying your family is important and you’d defend them for example- if they are in danger and you defend them, even at your own peril, you’ve shown you meant it. If they are in danger and you sit there typing on the internet about it when it is in your power to do something about it but you don’t… your actions spoke
You don't need 4 pages of text to say as much.
If you want to label your posts as propaganda from the start when you are fighting your propaganda wars, I could then avoid coming to discuss them as I am not interested in engaging in your propaganda campaigns. Or if you prefer, because I don’t want to place it all on you, would you rather I ask you if a post of yours is propaganda or legitimately up for discussion before I reply? I’m also open to other ideas you have. I just want to avoid making the mistake in the future and not stepping on your toes while you’re on the job making propaganda.
Let me know, and again, apologies for the mix up.
As for reduction to absurdity, I’m also not sure what you mean, but if I did not misunderstand (correct me if I did) your main arguments boil down to reducing the issue down to concepts like freedom.
Now, we are both distilling things down it seems, but am I reducing things to absurdity or is it that under logical examination certain arguments are exposed as absurd? That’s open to debate, but as I said before, if you have any specific examples we can review them to build an understanding and hopefully help me avoid whatever it is I’m doing which is tripping your insecurities or triggering you to feel talked down to.
Is that all accurate?
2. No. Incorrect. I did not say that every measure to “control covid” is legitimate. In several places I say that I believe several are illegitimate or put in place through illegitimate means and not proper legal channels.
3. No. I do not believe the “convoy” is illegitimate because “unions.” Most unions have disavowed them and the nations largest trucking organization has called into question of many are even truckers. The presence of what we can imprecisely but generally refer to as open and on display “Nazis” has the natural tendency to delegitimize a political group though.
4. Can you please provide more information on this theft of millions of dollars? I am not aware of this. Cannot discuss, but I find several things in that next section I won’t legitimize as they warrant their own discussion which could get us off track.
5. No. In context my quote to “sit down” was a stylized way of emphasizing the point of that particular…
The larger discussion that came from was that yourself and others had repeatedly leaned on the concept that covid mandates were a major issue of personal freedom- so to summarize I had said that if a person truly believed that and was fighting for freedom, and truly believed freedom was so important, they would actually do something instead of sending what amounts to “thoughts and prayers.” Things like a letter ratting campaign, fund raising, lobbying, demonstrating, etc. that’s when the truckers came up as an example of a group that was actually doing something-
Wether one supports them or not- they were doing more than whining.
The comment to sit down was specifically towards arm chair whiners and the part about Canadian truckers didn’t include “Canadian” I had said something like:
It is turn off phrase, so I didn’t literally mean that only truckers may speak on the issue, the implication was that “trucker” was used metaphorically in context to refer to a person who is actually doing something personally to fight what they see as an injustice versus someone who is screaming about how unfair it is and expecting or hoping others feel the same way, but isn’t actually doing the work to defend the freedom they feel is threatened through action or direct communication with policy makers.
In essence- my stance there was that if an argument hinges on how critical the stakes are, but the person telling me how important it is doesn’t see it as enough of a priority to do more than type about it, they probably don’t actually think it’s that important.
The masks thing is most likely because there were a couple discussions recently I saw and posted in pertaining to masks, so it is both possible that I got mixed up a bit and/or that there were sting parallels between something in this thread and those.
It is also generalizing, but I would say fairly accurate that if a person opposes mask mandates they oppose vaccine mandates; and to a lesser degree a person that opposes vaccine mandates opposes masks. Not always true- but not every man you meet will have a penis either, most will.
More over, when it comes to the general issue of “covid politics” and freedom, discussions of masks and discussion of vaccines tend to be linked. Both are mandates put forward to mitigate covid and both are issues that many feel infringe on personal freedom or overstep authority.
The fallacy is that because you are acting on your own thoughts and for what you want that you are not being used. A mastery of control is making people useful wether they know they work for you or not.
When we dance to the tune played by media and governments and “counter cultural thinkers” and these people who aren’t where they are for any reason other than they know how to make people do what they need them to- we are being used.
The donkey isn’t being told where to go, it wants the carrot so it follows the carrot. It just happens to be a coincidence that the carrot leads it to the exact place where the guy with the stick wanted to go….
It's gotten me a lot of heat on gun rights forums that I'll call out police and government overreach and missteps, but will still speak out (which is actually dangerous in my neck of the woods) and donate in support of law enforcement.
That is to say, it seems you're implying that I'm being led by the nose. When in fact I know my goals only align with any groups until they don't. But we've agreed for the time on what the more immediate concern is. I'll shoot the anarchists tomorrow, but today stand with them against tyrants.
Stating plainly that you don’t need to be led, all they have to do is create the conflict they can market to the sensibilities of their target audience and let you decide for yourself to do exactly what they want you to.
Here’s my mental math as pertains to the subject:
The closest thing to “complete freedom” for an individual is anarchy. As free as you may be, most people around the world will likely never be so free that they can kill anyone they feel like in cold blood. You and I likely both agree that is a good thing.
Charles Manson or any number of killers locked in jails and institutions might say “what’s wrong with being free to kill..?”
We remove them from society and what is left is mostly people who don’t want to have “the freedom to kill anyone.”
So basically no one is fighting for the freedom to murder others because we don’t want it. It’s not a freedom we care about so it isn’t one we miss. We aren’t truly free…
So the fact you aren’t completely free doesn’t matter to you. You’re probably happy about it, I doubt you’d be happy if they granted freedom to murder right?
By the same token- you don’t have to make or compel someone to do what you want if you set it up so that they will do what you want and call it their own idea. It is their own idea- you just happened to know they’d react that way so you provided the spark to light the flame.
Jim knows there is a cushy promotion that will be coming up, he also knows there is rival company with a fancy sounding job opening for a crappy job.
Jim’s big competition for the promotion will be Bill. Bill is a go getter, ambitious and skilled, looking to advance, but above all competitive.
Jim finds out Sharon is going to apply at the rival company. He sends a message to Bill saying “wow! Sharon is in the running for that cool job!”
That news sets Bill in gear and he beats Sharon for the job. Jim gets the promotion because Bill is gone, “winning” his crappy prize.
Bill was a free thinker, sincerely- his thoughts and actions were his own and we can’t really say he was tricked, there were no explicit lies or coercion.
Winners set it up so they can’t lose. Finding people to happily do the work you need some for free is generally a win.
Do you think we should have the freedom to murder other people, or do you think we should be restricted from committing murder at will?
Murder is not freedom. Murder is stripping away another's freedom.
And then your prior comment is implying that I'm being manipulated to win a crappy prize. You're making me out to be toy soldier just waiting for somebody else to turn my key. You're wrong, and the mere implication is nothing less than insulting.
One way I get to live life normally. The other way state enforcers are going door to door to force compliance with militant force.
1. Then I did not misspeak on your idea of freedom, you do not believe each person should be free to murder another person- which is what I said I believed was your view on the matter.
2. No. Again. You are not a toy soldier waiting to have his key wound. You move around at your own will constantly, making choices for yourself and expressing agency in your life, and I am not saying otherwise.
I’m saying you are reasonably predictable. Like most people. Social engineering can be used to make you choose things you wouldn’t normally, but it is also a method of predicting how people will behave on their own, and then designing a scenario so that their behavior benefits you.
A simple example is the classic “leak.”
If I know that most people will either want to see, or will discuss a person in a scandal, and I know that the more a name is discussed, the more recognizable it is. The more recognizable a name is, the more marketable it is. The more marketable,
I provided true information, information curated and presented to have the maximum odds of impacting how I want it to, but completely true.
Nothing about that changes the way you think it would behave, you are only naturally responding to events around you as you normally would. I just anticipated that and ensured that the timing and circumstances lined up so that I could use your reaction to get what I wanted.
*Floats away*
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I support vaccines, this ine included. I believe the benefits outweigh the risks for a lot if people. It should be noted that 1/3 of the previously recommended vaccines is no longer recommend because it did things to people that they didn't intend. Also, the companies who made the covid vaccines insisted on immunity from lawsuit against unintended side effects for some reason. Oh, and the pharmaceutical companies that made the shots have paid billions in 3 of the 10 larges lawsuits in history.
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All I'm saying is to just let each one of us assess the risk of losing 1/8" of a staircase vs mandating a vaccine for what is statistically a very...very small risk for the young and healthy.
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Still, when the original comparison laid out in the post is batshit ridiculous, you work with what you got
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But yeah, you pretty much said it. 99% of people against the vaccine don't care if YOU want to get it. They just want you to stop trying to force them to get it.
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And let's not forget multiple sources have stated the vaccines do not arrive with the ingredients listed anywhere on them; we were lied to about the ingredients openly; pharmaceutical companies have stated (both on and off the record) that the vaccines are not effective, and not AS effective as natural immunity. They've lied repeatedly about the statistics connected to covid
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They won't even acknowledge alternate methods of treatment - actively condemned them, actually. And they won't acknowledge the risks involved in the vaccine or the deaths caused so far.
If you gather all your information on these vaccines and you decide you want it in your body: Godspeed.
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But stop demanding anyone else do the same. There's more than enough reason to be concerned
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Honestly thinking about it just as a stand-alone concept unconnected to covid now and it sounds like some sort of bizarre Black Mirror episode that got cancelled where people are lining up to get injections to widen their staircases and make other minor modifications to their houses and the world around them. Idk what the dark twist at the end would be but