Everyone should have a right to representation but they have much different needs than people who will grow up into the system. That’s why the issue about young people not voting is so prevalent and talked about. Younger people should be taking advantage of shaping their future. At some point there should be an age cutoff to voting. Culture and technology and the economy change so much over a generation that politics and laws should change to match it not stay the way they’ve always been like many older people would like
"You contributed to society and advancement of the human race and yet because you hit 65 you're no longer allowed to vote for governement office gramps. Get fukt old man."
Every one of my relatives over 60 or so admit they don’t look into the issues. They vote on party lines because that’s what they’ve always done. And older people who need things like Medicaid tend to vote for those in support of expensive programs to fund something that benefits only them and doesn’t necessarily benefit future generations. Not saying that’s everyone in that age group who votes but there’s a reason that there is such a pervasive joke about only old white men in politics. “It’s what it’s always been” is not an excuse
It’s a bit of a double edged sword isn’t it? I agree with metal man that voter suppression or the takin of people’s voices isn’t something we should build into our system- or that at the least we should only take a right from an individual when that person has shown they can’t use it to the standards of society- such as they’ve abused it or are mentally unfit to hold it- not just because their age or gender or race or whatever is chosen as a sign they obviously cannot be trusted with it. That said- of course it’s true the world changes and the old often but not always get left behind. It’s also true that the young will live in the world that is created today after the very old are gone.
Annecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Sorry your family has practiced uninformed voting but that's their right and not my problem to fix.
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The reason old white men are so prevalent isn't necessarily because "the old white people vote for old white people." But rather various factors ranging from: Rich privilege, media coverage, and the fact that large portions of the population don't want massive swings in policy every 4 years.
It’s also a slippery slope on both sides. @ardinola- if we say the old being out of touch or rigid is disqualification to vote- what of the young legal adult who lacks the life experience and time on the earth to have context, breadth of view and so on to fully understand their choices? Who may likely not have a family of their own or an established place in society yet and so is basing their views on a perception without roots or foundation? What if the research that shows a human brain isn’t considered fully formed until 25, and many psychologists argue the illusive “self” if ever truly realized- doesn’t take solid footing until some time after 25? That would make the minimum qualification for an informed voter 25-30.
But then, ardinola has a point against metalman in that we DO say that a whole group of people are “too young” to vote. We DO say that age IS a factor in wether you eat a voice or not. The reasoning there is that physiological and physiological developments occur which make a person “capable” of such responsibility and power. It stands to reason if we look at it practically or ideologically- tying changes to brain and mind of age to voting ability- would extend to changes that we know medically occur later in life to the brain and mind. Loss of plasticity, slower faculties, memory and perception issues and bias, difficulty assimilating new information and so on. If we can say you’re too young to vote because your brain is not in a state to vote- why can’t we say you are too old for your brain to be capable of voting?
You both have valid points- but I think metalman has a more valid principle to democracy. If we are talking about giving younger people a vote- support it or not- that’s another discussion. But talking about TAKING people’s voice in society away is not in the spirit of democracy or American freedom. It’s almost a non starter.
So ardinola- I have to say I find your argument isn’t without some merits of logic- but I find it fundamentally indefensible on the grounds that your principal is to take the rights of others to help quiet their voices and make others voices louder- instead of looking for ways to raise up the voices of the young and give them more power to have a say in their future. Old doesn’t mean dead. Most folks as kids think 30 is old. Most people at 30 would disagree. Maybe 50 becomes old. Until you are 50 and realize you likely still have 20-30 years left. Now picture some one who hasn’t been alive 30 years telling you that you should shut up and die peacefully because you “only” have 30 years left to live? Objectively we see t doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I completely agree. That’s the hard part that the easy answer is get younger people out to vote if it means getting things the way you would want. But there are a lot of problems in voter discrimination and suppression across things like income level, education, literacy, language, etc. not to mention the feeling of disenfranchisement from young people who are told that they don’t know enough to vote, aren’t sure of their own beliefs (as you pointed out earlier with maturity), and because of certain limits like age requirements don’t see people “like them” being available to represent them. I’m not saying that taking away the right to vote from a huge swath of the population is the right answer. I’m just saying that the influence that particular demographic holds is not representative of that group’s population within the US (even if it’s caused by other groups not turning out to vote as readily).
Older people often have more free time to go and vote and fewer day-to-day responsibilities that prevent them from focusing on politics in the first place. Voting needs to be made more convenient for all not just those with more free time to entice younger people to vote at all. Again... not saying to take their rights away but maybe there’s a way to even the playing field as it were.
Many people don’t have the means, time or ability. There are plenty of reasons more attributed to near discriminatory practices than simply desire. Yes there are ways to vote even with those issues but it’s not always just that easy
This is the definition of minority voter suppression. Literally pulling the ability to have a potential future away from old people because they're old. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
If young people want to change the political scene then they should show up at the goddamn voting sites on voting days. But no they'd rather remove a percentage of the populations rights to representation. Fucking ridiculous.
By definition that’s true but they are not the minority.
Look up demographics of voters and it shows that they make up a large portion of voters and their demographic sways or has the potential to sway elections. In many circumstances when trying to implement long term plans for government their special interests can easily conflict with younger generations who will be the ones living in the world created by older people.
But you’re 100% correct on getting young people motivated to vote. It’s just as important as making sure every demographic is aware of the need to research issues and be aware of the consequences of certain policies over time and not just immediately.
They're a minority population of the US making up 55 million people. They represent a large portion of the electorate because they'll actually get out and vote. You'd rather support voter suppression than fix young people voting. Got it.
@ardinola- I get what you are saying- American democracy isn’t a 1:1 representation of people. It can’t be. For starters- electoral votes are what really count. Beyond that- some states votes “matter” more, and wether it is national, state, county, even local- districting and other factors make it so that some people’s votes really just don’t matter. They COUNT- but they are meaningless.
But.... there are some practical reasons there. You’ll find far more voters in urban and suburban America than you will find in rural America. California, and to a lesser extent New York are not widely loved for their rules and politics nation wide- but if every voice was counted the same, and we made decisions on total votes- these are the states that would be making decisions for people living in smaller states. It’s the same problem- guys hundreds or thousands of miles away with different lives and problems making decisions. For NYC a ban on large non commercial trucks would be a practical economic and environmental decision (ignoring freedom right now)- but if that ban effected people in Iowa.... a $10 toll for driving through the city mid day makes much more sense in San Francisco than in Beetsville.
And minority, majority, a central point of our system is to make it so that even if you are part of a group that is small in number- that your issues and needs are heard and considered.
In the end- it isn’t “voting” that young folks are left out of really. It’s politics. Slogans and causes and iconic figures are attractive to the young- but most aren’t interested in boring hard politics. Most people- but especially young folks, tend not to have patience for the process- and the bigger the beast, the slower it moves. It kinda has to- to allow people a chance to speak, to give chances for checks and balances. To not rashly make decisions that effect millions of real humans.
By nature- older folks have had more time- translating to more opportunity- to make friends, connections, bank favors, gather power and recognition, and of course... money. Even without corruption- votes are largely bought. Advertising and legal actions, trips to be in the right place to whisper in the right ears. It’s a human thing- the more we hear something- the better it tends to sound. You have to be in the right place to make sure that the right person(s) are brought and kept onboard with your plans.
And of course- it tends to take these things to get into office. You don’t see a lot of folks under 30 in positions of senior leadership in politics. It’s rare enough in mayors and local politics- but congress, senate, etc- the young folks aren’t there. They generally aren’t even on the ballot. Part of that is practical reality. As mentioned- the finances and support and experience to make it as a serious candidate are hard to find in a crowd largely more worried about student loans or buying homes- let alone being able to afford gas or food or just rent. It’s hard to run a large campaign when you can’t afford Netflix without sharing an account.
But... it’s an old fart thing to say... it’s possible. It’s about priorities. There are plenty of folks under 30 or around 30 making decent incomes, with inheritance or other windfalls or income- who if they made it their cause- if they dedicated themselves to that goal above all- and maybe with help... they could make a run at it. Would they make it? Maybe not. Probably not being honest. Although recently betting on politics has favored the long shots- so who knows?
But the point there is that as a general rule- people won’t take you seriously if you don’t show you’re serious. Most people aren’t inclined to teach a guy a skill who’s sitting on the couch whining that he can’t get a good job without this skill and he can’t get the skill without this loan, but the loan is... blah blah. But that same guy- maybe he’s still telling it that way- but he’s out like a monkey trying to fuck a football- just trying his hardest and flailing wasting effort- someone sees that and they’re liable to say “kid. You’re doing it wrong. Let me help you.”
If you won’t fight for yourself- other people aren’t as likely to join the fight unless they see you as incapable. If you’re incapable- giving you more power doesn’t seem like a good idea does it? That’s like seeing a kid trying to dig a hole with a stick- but instead of putting the stick in the dirt and moving it bit by bit with determination- he’s swinging it around over his head and crying- hoping that in the process the hole gets dug. The first kid- you might smile and bring him a shovel. With that tool and his attitude- he can dig his hole. You may even help get him started. The second kid- you won’t give him a shovel. His useless- borderline dangerous- with a stick already. That’s not just a waste of the cost of a shovel someone else could use- he could hurt someone- and lord help oh if he somehow uses that shovel to end up with a back hoe. He’d destroy the town and get nowhere.
So districting, voter suppression, many of the things that are “Gamed” by career politicians- these are all valid topics that need looked at. Young folks and politics- we should look at that and see how to get kids involved. They used to teach us “civics” in school. There were organizations kids could join to help the community and take on advancing responsibility as they aged and showed aptitude. These are all solid things. Military or other civil service for young adults could certainly be refreshed to give younger folks a better feeling of connection and opportunities within government and to affect the world as well.
But it starts with the young voters. They have to get involved. If they feel powerless nationally or globally- start in the neighborhood, the community, work up to the city, and so on. But as for not having time to vote etc... I understand that even though you legally must be allowed to vote- I know that doesn’t mean there aren’t those who bend, break, or hold it against workers. I know that for people who don’t drive etc and have kids and complicated lives (often ones made by and continued in poor decisions and bad luck) it isn’t so simple. But... the mail in ballot is a thing. Covid seems like it will really push that to the mainstream- and that’s a fight young folks could make that could help their ability to be able to vote. There are options. There are outlets. There are choices. None are perfect. Never are.
I’ve written too much. I’ll leave it on this: everyone who is old now was once young. The boomers were in the generation of hippies and flower children, the drugs and love of the 70’s. Gen X were the antiestablishment generation reborn. Don’t trust politics. Don’t trust corporations. The real source of modern dystopian fiction and cyber punk. Rebel- fight- disobey- refuse to be part of the machine and so on. They all got old.
When they cut off the heads of the aristocracy in France- the peasant leaders took over their homes and jobs once they were gone. So the young people today will be old people someday. In a world where the old have held power predominantly for at least several centuries and the young have resented or opposed it- or cried for a measure of equality... why is it that when those young people get old and finally are in the place and have the power to smash the system and hand the power over.... it stays with the old?
In 20,30,50 years we will see what is true and what isn’t. We will see if all the young people asking for old people to not vote or not be in politics feel the same way when they worked hard for decades to get there and finally have the power and position to make changes they think are best for the world- and often themselves- we will see if this generation is the one that hands the power over and excuses themselves from participation in running society.
I’ll be dead most likely- so it won’t really matter to me one way or the other beyond hoping for a brighter future for everyone that comes after me. Most people- the sort of people who keep going after they get old and don’t just stop- are people who generally have an honest belief that they are doing “good” and are trying to see a vision through to make a better tomorrow. Their idea of that and yours may be very different- but they are trying.
Considering young people simply don't turn up to vote, I will conclude that young folks are much like the person who makes a big talk about going to the movie theater, but never shows up.
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The reason old white men are so prevalent isn't necessarily because "the old white people vote for old white people." But rather various factors ranging from: Rich privilege, media coverage, and the fact that large portions of the population don't want massive swings in policy every 4 years.
Look up demographics of voters and it shows that they make up a large portion of voters and their demographic sways or has the potential to sway elections. In many circumstances when trying to implement long term plans for government their special interests can easily conflict with younger generations who will be the ones living in the world created by older people.