Honest to god I'm really curious as to what "zero tolerance" entails. Is it zero tolerance for fighting or zero tolerance for bullying? Or is it zero tolerance for retaliation and rational choices?
I totally agree with the message of the post, but the fact that all the "dialogue" is either the parent making a perfectly worded point or the other adults gaping while they fail to adequately respond makes me think OP is just using the strawman fallacy in story form rather than talking about something that actually happened.
Self-defense is only a legitimate legal defense if it isn't overkill. You can't stab someone after they spit on you.
And you *might* be able to get me on lowered sex assault charges *if* you manage to convince them it was groping or something, but that's doubtful.
But she didn't stab him, she slapped him, completely within the bounds of justification. Given the nature of is harassment groping is necessary. If he unclasped her bra against her wishes and protests, thats sexual assault.
so if I repeatedly touched your pants, pulled them down and took off your shoes, and you hit me with a crowbar, you'd lose because you hit me with a crowbar? (garlog)
>at garlog: even if you want to consider it over reaction (to me it was justified), can't you consider the fact that before she resorted to violence, she tried to enlist help from authority? It didn't work. The teacher who's supposed to look after his students didn't help when his student was obviously distraught from the action. The boy wouldn't stop, was she supposed to let him keep going? Would a pat on the arm work, especially since he's so much bigger than her? Punching in the face was violent, and in your opinion overdone, but it worked. He stopped. At this point, its unfair to twist her situation into being the assailant.
It's not an overreaction because she made escalating attempts to nonviolently stop the situation. But garlog's right in a sense, a curb-stomp wouldn't be appropriate as a first response. But a slap as a first response is still arguably appropriate.
@celticrose
"But she didn't stab him"
I was just using that as a separate example.
"she slapped him, completely within the bounds of justification."
I don't know if it was a slap, but it caused bodily harm, which is an undue escalation in that scenario.
"If he unclasped her bra against her wishes and protests, thats sexual assault."
That's debatable.
@banana
Yes, a crowbar would obviously be an overreaction.
@awdorkable
"even if you want to consider ~after his students didn't help when his student was obviously distraught from the action."
None of that justifies an overreaction.
"The boy wouldn't stop, was she supposed to let him keep going?"
No, the problem is she *over*reacted. I'm not saying she shouldn't have reacted at all.
"At this point, its unfair to twist her situation into being"
It's not twisting anything, and I'm not saying the boy was justified in what he did.
@chu
"It's not an overreaction because she made escalating attempts to nonviolently stop the situation."
She jumped from an appeal to authority to bodily injury.
"But a slap as a first response is still arguably appropriate."
That was technically her third response, but that's more in your favor than mine.
She followed the "chain of command" perfectly as dictated by every school I've gone to. If you've got a problem, confront the problem first yourself and see if you can't resolve it between the two of you. If not, go to an authority for help. If that doesn't work, well shit nobody says what else to do because USUALLY the teacher solves the problem. Going to high authorities wouldn't be worth the trouble for the reward because you're almost guaranteed a detention for disrupting class, another detention for leaving class without permission, and a third detention for not being able to solve it between you and the other person. So she solved her problem herself as efficiently as she could with what she was given.
"she solved her problem herself as efficiently as she could with what she was given."
Except she used undue force. She drew blood, that's injury, that was escalation. That's where she fucked up.
What would you have done? Grabbed his hand and gave him and indian burn? If I was the guy, doing that would just piss me off and make me do it more. But why am I doing it to begin with? I'm bored as all hell but I don't have any sexual intentions. I just...aren't aware of the ramifications of what I'm doing. I'd need at least a really hard slap to tell me to fuck off, get it through me that what I'm doing is really not appreciated. I'd be mad for maybe the rest of the day but then I'll realize that I kinda deserved it, and I'm pretty sure something along the lines of what I just wrote went through the other kid's head too.
"If I was the guy, doing that would just piss me off and make me do it more."
That could just as easily have been his response to being hit.
"I'd need at least a really hard slap to tell me to fuck off, get it through me that what I'm doing is really not appreciated."
Theoretically if she hadn't drawn blood she'd be in the clear. Hitting the face was a misstep.
You mean "anything that doesn't cause bleeding" right?
Why is drawing blood so much worse? A sharp crack to the nose does less damage than a solid punch to the gut but it'll give you a nice bloody nose.
"You mean "anything that doesn't cause bleeding" right?"
Anything that doesn't cause injury.
"A sharp crack to the nose does less damage than a solid punch to the gut"
No it doesn't, your face is full sensitive delicate areas. A broken nose is worse than sore abs.
You obviously haven't been punched in the gut. I've gotten backhanded in the nose (accidentally but it still made me bleed) and hit in the gut, admittedly with a wooden board during paintball that came loose and got kicked into me but I'd definitely take the bloody nose over the gut hit.
The aforementioned non-injurious actions, running away, appeal to authority (another teacher in this case, maybe), stuff like that. Being more violent than your assailant isn't an appropriate response.
Honestly, I think suing and reporting is not the way to go. The boy may be registered as a sex offender for the rest of his life only for being stupid that one time. He got his punishment, that is to say a fist in the face, and he now knows that what he did was wrong. I would leave it at that, and definitely not punish the girl. If he twanged her bra repeatedly after being told to stop and even undid it, it was basically self defense, albeit a bit overreacted. However, this overreaction has a term, which is called "affect" (correct me if I'm wrong in this, not a native speaker but I assume this term is the same in most languages), which means acting while being so angry that you're prone to violence. If someone annoys you like that for a long time, it may happen that you just snap and punch him square in the face or gut. It should be also taken into consideration.
I love how hitting someone for snappibg and unhooking a bra is overreacting. Would a guy feel the same thing if someone grabbed his underwear and yanked it down. It is just as exposing, especially depending on the type and material of shirt a girl is wearing.
Oh no, violence is in most cases an overreaction. Grabbing his arm would in my opinion be a better way to clearly show him to stop, but maybe he wouldn't even then. The point is, we can debate whether or not it was an overrection, but the truth is, we all would've probably behaved the same way in such an infuritating situation, which makes the girl's reaction perfectly understandable.
Holy shit this site is full of feminazis. I got downvoted and I even supported the girl. I guess they won't have enough until the teenage boy's life is ruined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance_(schools)#Criticism
Yeah, no. That's a violent overreaction that should be punished.
And you *might* be able to get me on lowered sex assault charges *if* you manage to convince them it was groping or something, but that's doubtful.
"But she didn't stab him"
I was just using that as a separate example.
"she slapped him, completely within the bounds of justification."
I don't know if it was a slap, but it caused bodily harm, which is an undue escalation in that scenario.
"If he unclasped her bra against her wishes and protests, thats sexual assault."
That's debatable.
@banana
Yes, a crowbar would obviously be an overreaction.
@awdorkable
"even if you want to consider ~after his students didn't help when his student was obviously distraught from the action."
None of that justifies an overreaction.
"The boy wouldn't stop, was she supposed to let him keep going?"
No, the problem is she *over*reacted. I'm not saying she shouldn't have reacted at all.
"At this point, its unfair to twist her situation into being"
It's not twisting anything, and I'm not saying the boy was justified in what he did.
"It's not an overreaction because she made escalating attempts to nonviolently stop the situation."
She jumped from an appeal to authority to bodily injury.
"But a slap as a first response is still arguably appropriate."
That was technically her third response, but that's more in your favor than mine.
Except she used undue force. She drew blood, that's injury, that was escalation. That's where she fucked up.
That could just as easily have been his response to being hit.
"I'd need at least a really hard slap to tell me to fuck off, get it through me that what I'm doing is really not appreciated."
Theoretically if she hadn't drawn blood she'd be in the clear. Hitting the face was a misstep.
Why is drawing blood so much worse? A sharp crack to the nose does less damage than a solid punch to the gut but it'll give you a nice bloody nose.
Anything that doesn't cause injury.
"A sharp crack to the nose does less damage than a solid punch to the gut"
No it doesn't, your face is full sensitive delicate areas. A broken nose is worse than sore abs.
And preferably without getting shot or shanked