Personally I wouldn't get an abortion, but if someone else does, I wouldn't go and picket their wedding or whatever. It's like saying that just because I don't like jelly doughnuts, I'm going to ban them.
The world needs more thoughtful people like you :)
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· 9 years ago
I'm for abortion, just as long as it's before around the 7 month period, as that's where I feel that the fetus begins to 'live', based on the science. While abortion is a desperate attempt to cover up a mistake caused by a lack of protection, it is required for some and also it should be around for people who were sexually assaulted. And while 'killing the child' is bad, I believe the fetus only starts living after the 7 month period, as I said before. At least, that's what I think.
Is 7 months legal? I could feel my daughter kicking/swirling around at 6 months. Brainsandbeauty has the right idea. It is a woman's right to chose what to do with her body. End of story.
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· 9 years ago
Well, from my casual research, that's what I found, but I haven't actually been pregnant myself, (That'd be weird, seeing how I have a functional penis and all) and I don't have much firsthand experience, besides being born. (Well, removed, because C section)
In Australia I'm fairly sure there is a cut off at which you can no longer get an abortion after the fetus reaches a certain age as it is then considered to be a person. I think if the pregnancy is threatening your life you could possibly still get an abortion after this point though
1. Attacks the presentation of the point being made, not the point itself.
2. Irrelevant, that's not how consent works.
3. Just 2 rephrased.
4. Appeal to nature/naturalistic fallcy.
5. Appeal to emotion.
6. Reductio ad absurdum/strawman fallacy.
7. Just 6 rephrased.
8. False equivalence, also incorrect.
9. Another false equivalence.
10. Meaningless semantics.
Morgan, this was very interesting. I am not always the biggest fan of Matt Walsh, but I think he made some very strong points that I hadn't even thought of. I didn't think #8-10 were the best points, but the first several were excellent.
It wasn't quite as bad as the other guest made it out to be, but it was still an iffy argument. first off, the version given is weaker than the version of the argument here. In the version being responded to, it's some random musician. In the version posted here, it's your sister. That defeats his first argument simply by reframing the question, so guests evaluation of point one is accurate.
Now, for two and three, the authors argument is basically that you have no choice but to save your kid/sister because it's your fault what happened to them. Okay, first off, other guest is right. That isn't how consent works. But secondly, the writer here makes a point of clarifying that the exception to his argument is in cases of rape. Which first off, if that means he's okay with abortion in the specific instance of pregnancy born of rape, I actually respect his stance a lot more. But back to my argument. I am going to list off some other ways one could get pregnant without deliberately[cont]
doing something they know would result in pregnancy:
A defective condom
Defective birth control
Her Boyfriend promised he was going to wear a condom/was infertile and didn't/wasn't.
Condoms were sabotaged by crazy boyfriend/backstabbing friend/suspicious girlfriend the girl didn't know the guy had when she slept with him.
Girl doesn't know how sex works (ex. thinks 'pull out' method is effective means of contraception)
Are a couple of these still the girls fault? Sure. Does that give the state the right to force that woman, who may be as young as 16, to give birth? No. Even if you disagree with some of this list, the fact that this list exists still pokes massive holes into the argument that "a child is only conceived because two people intentionally committed a particular act which has, literally billions of times, resulted in the conception of a human life."
Honey, the arguement is if the court can order it. Not if they're going to die or not. Also, people can live a considerable amount of time with minimal blood, thanks to advanced life support systems or even just the human body. Having a shortage of blood also does not mean that the patient is actively bleeding. So please stop with your nonsense.
Right ? Like they're trying to be one of those " I'm older therefore wiser " people, the ones who scream at people older than them and treat little kids like idiots because they're little kids.
At least that's what I get when people say honey or sweety
When you are arrested, the police have the right to take bodily fluid samples (ie, saliva, urine, simple skin tissue) from you for various legal purposes. For paternity tests, the court can have you turn over DNA samples to determine if a child and adult are or are not related. What the law cannot have you do is give blood, in any amount, to save someone else without your express consent. You could be vilified in the court of public opinion for not helping someone received needed blood, but in a court of law, they can not force you to give up blood.
It boils down the 4th Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and requires any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.
Sweety, let's just come clear on one thing: Which country are we talking about? Metalman and fairy, c'mon you cuties, don't be rude.
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· 9 years ago
Cia1 no the court cant force you to donate your blood to save anyone yes the court can draw blood (which is way less than donating) for a blood alcohol test. A test which you consent to by having a drivers license. There you go "sugar"....
Personally I wouldn't get an abortion and think that abortions should only be allowed for girls/women who where raped or when the pregnancy puts the life of the mother at high risk (every pregnancy is risky but I mean cases of illness or because the body is too fragile etc.). Everyone else: Well, you had sex. Deal with the consequences.
But realistically I think banning abortion only leads to more unsave abortion which is much more dangerous. So I guess it's okay as it is. Everyone has to make their own choice and most importantly - live with it and all the consequences.
I live in a country where we learn about contraceptives and how you get pregnant (really pregnant not those "when you kiss someone you'll get pregnant" fairytales) in school and no teacher will ever tell you to be abstinent or that you're dirty or unworthy when you sleep with different guys or outside of marriage. You get condoms in every drug store or supermarket. You do not need the permission of your parents when you go on the pill. Still we have more than 100.000 abortions per year. So I don't really know if that really lowers the abortion rate.
Look at the states in America; where sex education is abstinence-based (i.e. lies) the rates of abortion, teen pregnancy and STI transmission are all significantly higher.
I feel so sorry for everyone who is fed these lies in school ... I keep reading about the things teachers tell students in America and I can't imagine what it must feel like to hear such things from persons who are supposed to be authorities. It's horrendous and I am so thankful sex ed in my country is not abstinence-based.
Agreed. I do want to remain abstinent, but there's lots of people who just will not do that. They should teach contraceptive methods because we all know not all of us are going to wait. Even though I may that isn't saying the next person will even have thought about that as an option.
Those against abortions.. Who will fight for a fetus.. Where are they once the child is born? Not very supportive then are they?
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· 9 years ago
I think this is a bit of a straw man argument. There are a lot of people who fight for children's rights and for better lives for children. There are many people who advocate adoption and support for mothers who need it. How do you know that pro life people aren't supporting these things as well?
Bystander effect and the ideology of I don't have to do anything because someone else will do it.
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Most of the people I know who are pro life also support other charities of varying types and with varying focuses. I think in aggregate the bystander effect applies but there are always exceptions.
It should be a choice. The pregnant woman's choice. It's a basic right, other people's views and religions don't concern her body and or situation.a man can walk away if he doesn't want a baby, but that woman is stuck with that, then what? Is she supposed to deal with all of that on her own, because he didn't want to deal with it? She doesn't deserve a second chance?
I'm pro choice. But that's just me.
Pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion. I'm not out there supporting abortion I'm supporting a women's right to have one. Her body her choice. No one gets to comment on it. Some people aren't ready to be moms, sometimes protection doesn't work or women can't afford it, sometimes the women really needs it. It's no one's place to judge.
How is it "pro-choice" if not everyone gets to choose. The child does not get to choose, they do not get a say. You are taking away another human beings' rights and life. It is murder.
Would you rather allow the child to be born to a single mother that is overworked and suffers with post pardom depression (especially since she was forced to have a child), becomes mentally unstable, and then inevitably the child suffers a life of abuse and neglect before eventually either being murdered by their mother or commit suicide? Sounds harsh right? Well it happens all the time with mothers who chose to keep the child, just imagine how it would be with a woman that didn't want it in the first place.
Xdmaniac that's the reason people get pregnant. And if someone makes one mistake they never intended to make ( like a condom breaking ) then why should they have to live with it ? It wasn't even their fault it was the condom companies for selling a shoddy product.
Also, the child doesn't get to choose because it isnt even conscious.
People in a vegetable like state or coma aren't conscious ( sometimes ) but others still have the right to pull the plug
Condoms can break. Rape happens. Mistakes happen. It's amazing how quickly people will turn on somebody they've never heard anything about just at the news of 'she's having an abortion'. She is in the superior position of the decision here because this isn't something that just goes away after giving birth- it's there for life. You can't win nowadays- get pregnant by accident at 16- everybody judges because your a teen mum. Have an abortion- everybody judges because you prevented yourself from becoming a teen mum. I don't support aborting handicapped children, or aborting a child late in the pregnancy- but I would never judge a woman because she made the independent decision that she couldn't handle having a child for whatever reason.
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· 9 years ago
I personally think that if it's your body, it should be your choice. No one else should tell you how you have to live your life. I support anyone who has an abortion, because it's their body and their choice; not society's and not the government's.
What about the economics issue? Medical costs, welfare, subsidized childcare, foster care, child abuse issues, increased population demand, etc. Conservatives are pro life but are against raising taxes and government assistance. Funny how a lot of conservatives are against sex education too. If all our taxes go up we'll see how many people change their mind to pro choice.
Well haven't heard that argument before. Wonder how women feel about their bodies being pregnant compared to dead corpses having organs taken out of them...
Honestly, I believe abortion is murder and should be avoided. Yes, there's always gonna be times where abortion is needed and that's a whole nother ball game. But unless the mothers life is at stake or for some other medical or other reason (yes, there are cases where the baby needs to be aborted, that is a completely different situation than what I'm talking of here), abortion shouldn't be legal. Unpopular opinion, I know. But a life is a life no matter how tiny or fragile it is. From the day that baby is conceived, that baby is a living, beautiful thing. And that's why even though it's "just a few cells" to some people, it's really so much more. Within the 3 weeks that baby's heart is already beating. It's no clump of cells.
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· 9 years ago
Actially the baby's heart begins to beat at 6 weeks
I was taught that it was 18-21 days, so around 3 weeks. You may be right and I'll google it, but I was just taught 3 weeks so I'll stick with that for now.
I heard the heartbeat of both of my kids at about four weeks. And it is a beautiful thing to see another life growing within you. Awe inspiring.
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· 9 years ago
Really? Where did they do such an early ultrasound?
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· 9 years ago
I was a high risk pregnancy both times so I had ultrasounds at least every month but that first one was just a listening device, not an ultrasound.
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· 9 years ago
Im not saying your wrong but ultrasound can hear a heartbeat and early as 6 weeks and Im pretty sure listening devices are not as sensitive. My best guess is you were actually further along than 4 weeks and just didn't know it. And with that said I could still be wrong but I doubt it
Google says that although an ultrasound can detect the heartbeat at 6-8 weeks, the actual heart forms at "18 days and by 24 days, the heart is pumping".
Well, technically we're all just clumps of cells.
And some people don't count a beating heart as a source of life as your heart is stopped during open heart surgery and after a heart attack ( and other stuff ) but you won't be declared dead until your brain is dead.
I agree it's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body.. But what about the life inside of her? It doesn't get a choice in the situation.. Talk about bodily autonomy only for the woman; do you think a child would choose to die?
The child wouldn't even have a body. It's not like two people have sex and it's a teeny baby that grows for nine months. It goes from a sperm/egg mix and morphs. It's as much as a body as an apple would be.
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· 9 years ago
If the child could comprehend it no it probably would not but very early in the pregnancy the baby's brain isnt formed either. Not saying abortion is right or wrong just been seeing this comment a lot
Young children don't even understand death, that's why we have the whole " pet ran away/went to a farm " or " granny is just sleeping/moved away " things.
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· 9 years ago
They also dont have "rights" till they are adults but thats a whole different set of rights than we a're talking about.
True, like the whole sisters keeper thing. They could force their daughter to give body parts because she wasn't 18 yet and had no bodily autonomy for herself.
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· 9 years ago
No a parent could not force their child to do that and no one could force anyone to legally
Wtf? Of course children have rights? are you kidding me? Did you ever hear of the United Nations Convention on the Right's of the Child? Children sometimes have more rights than adults because they need more protection
Yeah but its mot your fault your sister got in a crash. Most unwanted pregnancies are stupidity based. If you are too stupid to use a condom or birth control you shouldnt be allowed to kill another being for your dumbass mistake. Use protection kiddies.
1. Contraceptives are not perfect, they can fail and/or be unknowingly misused.
2. Rights are not forefeited because of personal stupidty. Identity fraud does not become legal because someone was stupid enough to tell the nice man on the phone their PIN.
Also, if they are stupidity based who are they to blame ? They were taught the only safe sex was to not have it so they had no idea about any contraception or how they work properly. So it's like making a pbj and j for someone allergic to nuts. You ask them why they're dying when you're the one who put nuts there and blame them for eating it.
so you should throw your life, your partner's life, and both your families' lives down the drain for a two minute mistake you made when you were 15 years old and got drunk once or a condom broke? Also, if you're too 'stupid to use a condom or birth control' if anything that's proof that you aren't fit to care for a child. Your logic is saying 'you screwed up a level 5 task on a scale of 1-10. So we're going to give you a level 10 challenge.' That's not how it works. you go back, you take the experience to realise where you went wrong- you be more careful and have more awareness and understanding.
I'm not trying to cause a fight, just creative commentary. If you shoot a pregnant woman, it's a double murder. True, your body should be your own choice, but is it really ethical to violate your own body in order to remove a baby that you most likely had a say in creating? Robbing children of their lives in the womb seems as wrong as outside of it. You have a choice to kill your child/fetus/whatever, but you also have a choice to kill an adult... At the moment, the punishment you get is the difference.
There's a difference between a grown ass person killing a grown ass woman who may or may not want to keep the baby, and a woman getting rid of a child that at the safe point is nothing more than a parasite
One kills to kill and the woman is only trying to do something.
That's like saying someone killing someone in self defense is still murder and they should get the death penalty.
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· 9 years ago
Parasite: Biology An organism that lives and feeds on or in an organism of a different species and causes harm to its host.
A baby in the womb is a natural and normal occurrence, not a parasite.
How could you call a baby a parasite? Parasites cause intentional harm to their hosts and a child is no parasite. Parasites are terrible things and no child should ever be put on the same level as "just some unwanted parasite".
At the time in the womb the woman is used as a host to grow the child. She has to eat twice as much, and gains extra weight ( meaning new clothes ), and her hormones get messed up, among other things. What does she get from simply having the child inside of her ? Nothing. The child gains as she has to change. Just because it's natural doesn't make a difference.
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· 9 years ago
My point was that a child is not by definition a parasite.
Personally I'm unsure of where I stand on the issue. I don't think I could ever bring myself to have one but I think that everybody should have the option to be able to make that decision for themselves.
That would be pro choice. Your choose would be not to have one while it might be someone else's choice to have one. That's what this side is all about.
Pro life means you support having the baby even though there is a highly likely chance the woman or baby would die or if the child was being born COMPLETELY deformed
I've had an abotion before, and it was a hard decision. My contraceptives didn't work and my boyfriend and I were in a financial situation where we could barely afford food, let alone things for a baby. We really didn't want to make that choice when we first found out. We couldn't afford hospital bills for when I had the baby, or prenatal vitamins, check ups, ect. We talked for weeks about this until we decided on it. I knew it was best for me, and that child that we terminate the pregnancy (we later found out it would've killed me to carry the baby full term). That was a year and a half ago, I look back and I do not regret that decision. I knew I had to think about the future. I think any woman should be able to terminate her pregnancy. I know in the future when I want children, but when I'm financially stable.
I find it really interesting that the 'pro-life' arguers aren't responding to this comment, which is the only real life case we have in the comments section. I admire your courage to do what you did- it must have been a really tough decision.
What do you expect me to say? It took courage to share her story here. Should I repay that with calling her names or saying she should/could have chosen differently? No. What happened is in the past. And I'm grateful she had the guts to share her story. It's easy to argue about choices but until we're in her shoes, we really have no idea what it's like to have to make a decision like that.
I am pro-life but none of us would say that she should have kept her baby anyways. There always will be cases where abortion is necessary and it's not those situations that we are against. It would have killed her to carry her baby to term. And even if it wouldn't kill her, she wouldn't have the ability to raise a child. When I say that I'm pro-life, I'm saying that I'm against intentional, no-strings-attached kind of abortion. Not this kind, where it's needed. Her life was in danger and the child would not have had an easy life. That was needed. I'm against cases like "I just don't want the baby, let's just get an abortion and it's all ok". I don't like abortion and I still believe it's murder. But sometimes, it's needed. This was one of those times.
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· 9 years ago
Ok but cases like rape if they make it ok to only have an abortion if you are raped or for medical reasons you will have a lot more people claiming rape to get one which could potentially put innocent people in jail
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And pro-lifers, you cant pick and choose like oh if she was raped then yes its ok no then you are pro-choice because she can choose to have it or choose to abort
I feel she should be allowed to have an abortion whatever the case.
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· 9 years ago
I feel like a woman should weigh the pros and cons and really think about it before making HER decision. I am pro choice and have been for as Long as I can remember. theres always going to be people who do stupid or wrong things within any group or population. If one or a few people do hurtful or wrong things with guns you do t take the right to own guns.
This has made me miserable, in the vast majority of cases someone was careless enough to conceive a child and kill them because they can't handle the consequences. Life is what you make it. We all fight so hard because each choice hurts us. I can't handle such horrible things that happen to innocent beings but God bless them no matter what you do.
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· 9 years ago
Well you can contribute by not getting one or causing someone to get one
Guest, no one has unprotected sex and gets an abortion for sport. Pretty much all the girls romanticizing it on twitter and shit probably haven't even had sex yet. Anyone who has had one knows it's a hard decision to make.
And if you can't handle it then don't get one, like stoner said. It's none of your business if anyone has one or not unless it's your kid.
To the pro-choice: could you be on a jury and sentence someone to the death penalty? Regardless of their crime, could you do it? It's institutionalized murder, same as abortion if we consider a creature alive at conception.
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To anti-abortionists: what rights does the mother have? I don't care about the legal rights, what rights do you think a pregnant mother should be able to morally claim? Do not consider circumstance, such as finance or health. Just answer the question as presented.
EDIT: wording thanks to fairytale
Well. It's not pro abortion a. It's pro choice because you believe the mother has the choice. Because some people consider the fetus alive and others don't, it's their choice.
Secondly, yes I could depending on the crime. If it was someone terrible like Charles Manson or Ted Bundy, I would because why should my taxes go to keeping them locked up ? They committed HORRIBLE crimes and took many peoples lives.
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· 9 years ago
He said regardless of the crime, and every get us is innocent. It's the people who aren't. But I'm pro choice, because i'm not killing the child. The child isn't THERE yet. Its body is, but the body is not capable of containing a completely functioning consciousness until a certain point, after which I believe you should not abort. I just don't believe the child to be alive at the moment t of conception. Also, you don't know what has happened to people. Maybe they were drunk, or raped, or their protection failed, etc. I believe it is THEIR CHOICE, and while I most likely wouldn't abort, it's the person's choice. Killing a baby is horrible, but stopping a get us which isn't alive from becoming alive isn't as bad. And most people find it very hard to reach their choice. So I'm pro choice.
If a woman is raped, does she give up her bodily autonomy? If a woman is carrying her father's child, does she give up her bodily autonomy? If carrying the child to full-term will create a serious health risk to a woman, does she give up her bodily autonomy? If a woman is careful but still becomes pregnant, does she give up her bodily autonomy?
mate, sometimes it is a flat out accident. Sometimes the condom breaks- most methods of contraception are not 100% guaranteed to prevent pregnancy. Even if it is unprotected- I personally feel a woman (and usually a man and both their families and friends) should have to sacrifice their choices for the rest of their lives, because of a mistake they could have made in their teen years out of drunkenness or something.
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· 9 years ago
This whole issue breaks my heart. Abortion is a heavy and sad and often traumatizing decision. Sometimes it seems like people arguing about it forget that. This isn't just about logical arguments. It's about people and life and death. I'm a mommy and I have a mother's heart, not just for my own kids, but for any unwanted child. They should be loved and told in no uncertain terms that they are wanted and necessary and that they have something to offer, something only they can bring to the world. To me, abortion does just the opposite. It tells a child in the most absolute way that they are unwanted. People seem to focus so much on our rights that it seems like they forget that love lays down my right to myself for the benefit of the person I love. That is pregnancy. That is what it means to be a mommy. Yes it's hard. Yes I don't get to do what I want all the time (who does?) but it's worth it. Every child is worth it, whether they've been born yet or not.
You had a choice about wanting your kids. Other women should have the choice about their pregnancies. Tell a woman who has been raped that she can't terminate the pregnancy.
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· 9 years ago
Is it the child's fault that their father was a rapist? Shouldn't that child get a choice too? I wouldn't tell her that she can't but I would try to help her see that it isn't just about her, that someone else's life rides on her decision. And I would stick with her either way. Abortion isn't a simple decision. It's traumatizing and there is grief and even guilt involved. A woman starts to bond with her child while that child is in the womb. I think that giving an abortion to a woman who has been raped doesn't help her heal or solve anything. I think it would just add to her pain. And yes, carrying that child would be very hard but I think that process could help in her healing. And like I said, if it was one of my friends, I'd stick to her and do anything to help her through that process, even if she chose abortion.
im sorry i was just wondering that if you think abortion is a sign of an unwanted child, what would be your stance on adoption? if a woman was to be raped and carried the child fulltime - possibly causing herself even more trauma at the thought of the same blood of the man who raped her in now growing inside her, another factor of how she can never now truly be away from him - and then was to give the child up for adoption, is that also bad? if she couldn't bear to look at the child as it constantly reminded her of the child's father? i agree that the child has done nothing wrong, but to even risk the mother showing less love towards this child and yet causing herself further pain just sounds worse. and what if the pregnancy was the result of incest? where the child was in danger of dying because of a mutation in the genes, or else being painfully handicapped for the rest of their life?
i don't just mean stuck in a wheelchair, I mean something that's physically painful and humiliating for them
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I think adoption is amazing and a very good option. I was adopted and several people in my family have continued that legacy in my generation too. I also want to adopt. I think it's a great way to give children a home where they are wanted and to help them heal from the trauma of their birth circumstance.
As for mutations and handicaps, I think they should be given a chance to live too. One of my best friends growing up was mentally handicapped and she was awesome and kind and always wanted to play when the other kids were being cruel. I know a kid at my church who is also handicapped and he's awesome too. He has a different way of seeing the world and the best laugh. Is that the case every time? No. But who are we to say that someone else's life won't be worth living? That's something only they can answer.
1) Adoption isn't a free pass as you seem to think. A lot of kids these days don't get adopted, there's too many kids, not enough decent parents.
2) While the child is in the womb, it doesn't know if it is unwanted or unplanned, and even after it won't understand for a few months at least probably.
4) An unborn child's life is yet to be lived. they don't have dreams and aspirations. The parents and families and friends do. And a baby will affect every one of them.
I don't for a second think that handicapped children should be aborted simply because of a disability- I feel that if you're in the later stages of pregnancy, unless your own life is at risk- I hope I would go through with it.
But I'm 14, and I can tell you know if I got pregnant I would have an abortion- no question about it. Consented, rape, a sincere accident or stupidity- I know I'm not ready for a kid, I'm terrified of pregnancy and having to reshape my whole future. Call it selfish, cowardice- but I'd do it.
That and, a lot of women don't want to be a mother. I have a friend and she never wants kids because she wants to solely focus on her career and she just isn't a fan of children. Of course that could change, but if she doesn't want a child, she shouldn't have to have one- especially if she was forced. If I was raped, I think my first thought would be to have an abortion as quick as possible- before I can get attached. One of the most terrifying things would be knowing you've instantly got a target on your back because what you consider a foetus that reminds of a horrible experience- others see as a baby that you should be grateful for.
There are actually places that pose as abortion clinics/planned parenthood type place but they're really pro lifers who then trap you and guilt you into having the baby
@jollysailorbold: I respect your decision though I think at the age of 14 you might be a little too young to see through all the consequences. You wrote that that you are terrified of a pregnancy and that a baby would reshape your whole future. Make no mistake here - an abortion reshapes your future just the same. With a baby it's more certain and clear how your life changes and with an abortion it's not, that's why many forget. You might be fine and never ever think back to the abortion so you chose the perfect solution for you. But one day you might feel a terrible guilt. you might have a family. You might feel guilt looking at your children. Your children might find out and hate you for it (as I can tell from personal experience). It's still your decision I just don't want you to think that an abortion does not influence your life. The only difference is that you can never be sure how it will influence you - if it's for better or worse.
Guest. Youre making a lot of assumptions. Firstly, anyone who has an abortion is going to feel guilty about it. It's not like they get pregnant and get one every couple of weeks to a birth control alternative. People actually think about it.
And I wouldn't hate my mother if I found out she had an abortion. I would feel bad for her. She made a choice once and it was her life. Just because you have children doesn't automatically mean your life doesn't count as experience.
And maybe they look at their children and see that they feel bad about the abortion but they're actually happy the way their life turned out.
That's why I said "might". With an abortion you don't know what you're in for in the end. Of course not every child while hate their mother for having an abortion. I have a hard time coming to peace with the fact that my mom aborted my older sibling. Especially as a teenager I felt like I did not deserve to live because my life should have belonged to my aborted sibling. It was and still is really hard for me - because it might have been HER body but it was also MY sibling. No one thinks about it that way but in a way she took something from me too. Not every child will feel this way. My older sister doesn't really care that our older sibling has been aborted. She said: Well, maybe we would not be here today if she had the child. So my family is the perfect example that you can have it both ways. Like I said: you don't know what will happen. But it will definitely influence your life. That was my point.
It disgusts me how selfish a person can be to make the choice in doing something that results in the formation of a human life and thinking they deserve the right to MURDER their own child because it is inconvenient to them. There is a special place in hell for people like that.
I mostly agree, it makes me nauseous to think that someone would approve of and even fight for the lawful right to murder. But, God is forgiving, and we should be too.
you're right. A man came and forced me to have sex with him and left me with a kid- nobody plans on supporting me, I'm a teenage girl in the middle of her education, all my future plans have to be dropped, everybody thinks I'm a slut and I'm going to have to go through the terror of pregnancy and childbirth then the worse terror of taking responsibility of a child who will remind me of possibly the worst experience of my life no matter how much I love them. Does that sound fair? That foetus doesn't have dreams- that foetus doesn't have a life already. The foetus didn't choose to be created- well what if the mother didn't choose to create the foetus either? No, I'm sorry- it's easy to look from the outside and shun people, but SHE'S the one who has to completely rearrange her life and HERSELF around the child. Not you.
What's desperately unethical is killing a baby before it even gets a chance to live just because you don't want to sacrifice your bodily autonomy for nine months. If you have unprotected sex and then get pregnant, you gotta live with that shit. Now if you get raped then get rid of the baby ASAP before it starts to develop inside you.
I'm not making decisions for them, I'm just saying it's super fucked up. Unless you get raped it's a terrible thing to do. Even if you are raped find out if your pregnant as soon as possible, then do it while it's still barely developed
Only to some people, science states that it's when the brain is formed that the fetus is alive. If everyone considered it alive the moment of conception then it wouldn't be as much of a controversy. Also conception takes awhile, so it isnt just a moment.
I agree with ninja, to me the baby is alive from when it's conceived. That's when life starts and a life is a life even when it's as fragile and small as an unborn baby.
That doesn't mean that the baby isn't alive because the pregnancy test won't pick it up yet. Might be barely alive, not much to it, but alive nonetheless.
Well, I've gone to college. In my childhood development class, lifespan psychology class, and abnormal psychology class, we've gone over fetal development. Yes the heart begins to beat very early, but there isn't even a stem of a brain until way later. The simply truth is that a fetus is not viable until 22 weeks, so its not a person yet. It has the genetic outline, but that's about it. I'm pro choice, and not just because of rape and, well, basic human rights, but if abortion were illegal, then so many children would be born with painful, awful, debilitating diseases. Abortion stops the horrible life of children before they begin, which I would be thankful for. There are horribly painful defects possible that no human should have to endure. So sometimes, abortion saves.
Thank you, knightangel.
Also, if this is the case then shouldn't all pro lifers be for adopting children who were forced to be born ? If you're going to make someone give birth to a child if they don't want it, you better be the one who takes care of it otherwise that child will have a terrible existence that you forced them to have because no one wanted them.
( I once had a guy tell me he didn't want to ever use a condom unless it was for anal, and if I got pregnant he would take care of the baby, even though I told him there was no way that was happening and later dumped him )
And ninja, I have no false comings from the pope other than I am not a christian ( but lots of people are, so this is not a valid reason, ) nonetheless, just because someone says something doesn't make it true, even if it is a man many consider holy.
I can quote a mass murderer and that wouldn't make it true.
here was an interesting read going against this argument.
2. Irrelevant, that's not how consent works.
3. Just 2 rephrased.
4. Appeal to nature/naturalistic fallcy.
5. Appeal to emotion.
6. Reductio ad absurdum/strawman fallacy.
7. Just 6 rephrased.
8. False equivalence, also incorrect.
9. Another false equivalence.
10. Meaningless semantics.
Now, for two and three, the authors argument is basically that you have no choice but to save your kid/sister because it's your fault what happened to them. Okay, first off, other guest is right. That isn't how consent works. But secondly, the writer here makes a point of clarifying that the exception to his argument is in cases of rape. Which first off, if that means he's okay with abortion in the specific instance of pregnancy born of rape, I actually respect his stance a lot more. But back to my argument. I am going to list off some other ways one could get pregnant without deliberately[cont]
A defective condom
Defective birth control
Her Boyfriend promised he was going to wear a condom/was infertile and didn't/wasn't.
Condoms were sabotaged by crazy boyfriend/backstabbing friend/suspicious girlfriend the girl didn't know the guy had when she slept with him.
Girl doesn't know how sex works (ex. thinks 'pull out' method is effective means of contraception)
Are a couple of these still the girls fault? Sure. Does that give the state the right to force that woman, who may be as young as 16, to give birth? No. Even if you disagree with some of this list, the fact that this list exists still pokes massive holes into the argument that "a child is only conceived because two people intentionally committed a particular act which has, literally billions of times, resulted in the conception of a human life."
(You can't, because they can't.)
At least that's what I get when people say honey or sweety
But realistically I think banning abortion only leads to more unsave abortion which is much more dangerous. So I guess it's okay as it is. Everyone has to make their own choice and most importantly - live with it and all the consequences.
I'm pro choice. But that's just me.
People in a vegetable like state or coma aren't conscious ( sometimes ) but others still have the right to pull the plug
And some people don't count a beating heart as a source of life as your heart is stopped during open heart surgery and after a heart attack ( and other stuff ) but you won't be declared dead until your brain is dead.
2. Rights are not forefeited because of personal stupidty. Identity fraud does not become legal because someone was stupid enough to tell the nice man on the phone their PIN.
One kills to kill and the woman is only trying to do something.
That's like saying someone killing someone in self defense is still murder and they should get the death penalty.
A baby in the womb is a natural and normal occurrence, not a parasite.
Pro life means you support having the baby even though there is a highly likely chance the woman or baby would die or if the child was being born COMPLETELY deformed
And if you can't handle it then don't get one, like stoner said. It's none of your business if anyone has one or not unless it's your kid.
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To anti-abortionists: what rights does the mother have? I don't care about the legal rights, what rights do you think a pregnant mother should be able to morally claim? Do not consider circumstance, such as finance or health. Just answer the question as presented.
EDIT: wording thanks to fairytale
Secondly, yes I could depending on the crime. If it was someone terrible like Charles Manson or Ted Bundy, I would because why should my taxes go to keeping them locked up ? They committed HORRIBLE crimes and took many peoples lives.
2. Contraceptives are not perfect, they can fail and/or be unknowingly misused.
As for mutations and handicaps, I think they should be given a chance to live too. One of my best friends growing up was mentally handicapped and she was awesome and kind and always wanted to play when the other kids were being cruel. I know a kid at my church who is also handicapped and he's awesome too. He has a different way of seeing the world and the best laugh. Is that the case every time? No. But who are we to say that someone else's life won't be worth living? That's something only they can answer.
2) While the child is in the womb, it doesn't know if it is unwanted or unplanned, and even after it won't understand for a few months at least probably.
4) An unborn child's life is yet to be lived. they don't have dreams and aspirations. The parents and families and friends do. And a baby will affect every one of them.
I don't for a second think that handicapped children should be aborted simply because of a disability- I feel that if you're in the later stages of pregnancy, unless your own life is at risk- I hope I would go through with it.
But I'm 14, and I can tell you know if I got pregnant I would have an abortion- no question about it. Consented, rape, a sincere accident or stupidity- I know I'm not ready for a kid, I'm terrified of pregnancy and having to reshape my whole future. Call it selfish, cowardice- but I'd do it.
And I wouldn't hate my mother if I found out she had an abortion. I would feel bad for her. She made a choice once and it was her life. Just because you have children doesn't automatically mean your life doesn't count as experience.
And maybe they look at their children and see that they feel bad about the abortion but they're actually happy the way their life turned out.
Also, if this is the case then shouldn't all pro lifers be for adopting children who were forced to be born ? If you're going to make someone give birth to a child if they don't want it, you better be the one who takes care of it otherwise that child will have a terrible existence that you forced them to have because no one wanted them.
( I once had a guy tell me he didn't want to ever use a condom unless it was for anal, and if I got pregnant he would take care of the baby, even though I told him there was no way that was happening and later dumped him )
And ninja, I have no false comings from the pope other than I am not a christian ( but lots of people are, so this is not a valid reason, ) nonetheless, just because someone says something doesn't make it true, even if it is a man many consider holy.
I can quote a mass murderer and that wouldn't make it true.